May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[Shakeel]

Can I ask you to comment on my 2nd point from above?

2) If the only thing stopping religious individuals from committing murder, stealing and committing adultery is a threat (from God), then how in reality are they worthy of Heaven? Where as, myself, not needing to be bribed or threatened into behaving, and doing these things because I know they are for the better of humanity, will go to hell? There's the unfair grading system for heaven again. Bribed into behaving=Heaven. Doing the right thing for the right reasons=Hell.

religion isnt all about that. it accepting god as your creater and sustainer and creater of the whole universe. its god that makes everything tick.

in abrahamic religons you are deemed worthy of heaven if you believe in god

there is a lot more to religon that what you think

 

[Gaidin109]

Again, why is religion in any way responsible for this? My children are extremely compassionate and loving, and don't need threats of an invisible being to force them into this. Instead, communication and example is all that is required to instill respect and most importantly compassion.

I would see trying to bribe them into behaving a certain way with threats from an invisible (not existant) being, as frankly the wrong thing to do.

I agree, I am not religious myself being agnostic. I am talking from an historical perspective. Religion is a control system, much like any Government or system of society.

Humanity needs boundaries, as your children get older and more sophisticated you will find they need more boundaries and moral guidance from you, their teachers and their peers, at one time religion was the primary source of this, both for adults and children.

We have the benefit of Education and moral codes taught from an early age by educated parents who have that moral code instilled by their parents and so on down, but at one time and not so long ago, education like this was rare, Religion was the educator, the law maker and the moral compass of most people. So no we do not need a God to enforce a moral code upon us, our education and realisation of causality do that for us, but this was not always the norm in society, so a world without ever having religion?

Not something I would like to experience.

 

[Shakeel]

if he did create the system we find ourself in, he's mad.

ponder upon everthing that around.

the weather system

night and day

perfect creation of the universe

gravity etc...

and you believe that this happnes by fluke

 

[steve-h]

religion isnt all about that. it accepting god as your creater and sustainer and creater of the whole universe. its god that makes everything tick.

in abrahamic religons you are deemed worthy of heaven if you believe in god

there is a lot more to religon that what you think

Why would you accept 'God' as your creater... if there is zero proof or reasoning which suggests such a thing even exists?

 

[Shakeel]

Why would you accept 'God' as your creater... if there is zero proof or reasoning which suggests such a thing even exists?

as a muslim i beleive the quran is my proof.

 

[NeilF]

religion isnt all about that. it accepting god as your creater and sustainer and creater of the whole universe. its god that makes everything tick.

in abrahamic religons you are deemed worthy of heaven if you believe in god

there is a lot more to religon that what you think

So you skipped the point... Handy...

Here's a simpler one for you... (try and answer)

Given my fervent disbelief in religion, who's children do you think are more likely to believe in a God? Yours or mine?

While of course there's a chance my children may become religious, I suspect they will most likely be athiests like myself. Whereas yourself, I suspect any children you have, have a greater chance of being religious.

Would you say that's a fair assumption?


Why are my children born more likely to go to hell than yours? Simply due to who their born to?

 

[NeilF]

ponder upon everthing that around.

the weather system

night and day

perfect creation of the universe

gravity etc...

and you believe that this happnes by fluke

I suspect I've pondered on it a good deal more than yourself, hence my conclusions

As for fluke. What's more likely, infinite universes with infinite flukes... Or a supreme being popping out of nowhere, who then creates the entire universe to utterly hide himself, not leaving a shred of evidence...

 

[steve-h]

as a muslim i beleive the quran is my proof.

mind = blown

 

[Gaidin109]

Here we go again... How do the ever increasing number of athiests manage to drag themselves out of bed each morning?

Seriously, you really believe people are so shallow that without a lump of fantasy they couldn't manage to function?

Education was not always the norm, you are forgetting that one overriding aspect of civilisations development out of barbarism was driven by religious education of a moralistic code and law. No matter how you shake and bake it, everyone has been affected somehow by that.

Athiesm grew out of Roman practicality, but by this time education and moral law making was already in place, when Rome fell and the Dark ages began barbarism didn't take too long to resurface and shortly after this began a religious revival which took us throught to the renaissance of the 16th-17th century where education and philosophical speculation came to the fore again and so on.

Do you see my point yet, it's not about the belief in a deity or not, but the control and codes it instills, replace it with rule of law and education and you get the same result, but with neither you have barbarism and anarchy.

Education alone will not stop the deeds done in religions name, as the Balkans and such examples show.

Quote possibly, but maybe your interpretation is askew? Maybe it was peoples general humanity and compassion, and not the result of some invisible threat from above?

I'm not sure it was ever a threat from above, rather than a hope or promise of eternal life and prosperity that did it. Probably a mixture of both, just like any good control system.

 

[SlugForAButt]

Got to love 'ole Shakeel, bless him.
All he needs as proof of something illogical, unproveable and unbelievable to most right thinking people is a book written by some other men, not Gods, men!
When are you going to start believing that Harry Potter is real Shakeel? Or maybe you won't because it's written by a woman not a man...

Anyways, this thread is going a little OT so let's get back to it.

 

[Usher]

as a muslim i beleive the quran is my proof.

so basically you base your belief in an all powerful god who created the whole vast ( still developing/expanding universe) on a book with no actual proof as to who wrote it ?
& is this why god neglects Earth & doesn't interfere or appear because he is still busy creating planets elsewhere you think possibly?

 

[Gaidin109]

so basically you base your belief in an all powerful god who created the whole vast ( still developing/expanding universe) on a book with no actual proof as to who wrote it ?
& is this why god neglects Earth & doesn't interfere or appear because he is still busy creating planets elsewhere you think possibly?

He's probably watching the World Cup, although my wife maintains that God is a girl and she's probably innundated with ironing and packed lunches for Gabriel and his Choirs of Angels, especially this close to Armageddon...

 

[SlugForAButt]

He's probably watching the World Cup, although my wife maintains that God is a girl and she's probably innundated with ironing and packed lunches for Gabriel and his Choirs of Angels, especially this close to Armageddon...

Hilarious.
You going to invite the cousins and uncles around to put her right later?

 

[RDM]

At one time it was dependant on religion, and that is the point. We have not always been so civilized, and religion played a huge part in the civilisation of mankind. To ignore that is foolish.

I disagree. Considering the reality of a multitude of religions existing and many saying different things it is not a stretch to say that religion is man made and that the moral codes that come from them are also man made. I would suggest that religion just reflected the moral code that was already developing around them at the time. Much like over time religion has subsumed marriage and now considers it to be a religious construct I believe the same can be said about morals.

A difficult question I agree.

What I am saying is that without some purpose, people wouldn't care one way or the other, our moral codes whether we are religious or not have been guided and moulded over generations by religion whether we like it or not.

Have they really? Or has religion just reflected the maturing of a moral code that is required to have any form of long term civilisation?

In a world without any kind of religion having ever existed I believe we would not have evolved such an hightened sense of morality in general.

I disagree, I would say that religion just reflects our morality and doesn't truely inform it. Much like the moral code of some progressive Christian churches is adapting to a world where homosexuality is no longer seen as taboo.

Religions have been responsible for far more positive things than negative and those negative things would have happened regardless due to human nature, would the same be true of the positive considering our penchant for protecting only those close to us at the expence of all else.

But as you are so keen in saying when defending the wrong done in religion's name "It isn't religion, it is people". So why is the same not true for the good done in religion's name? Bad people do bad things because they are bad people but good people do good things because they are religious? I disagree. It is quite possible that without religion to guide us we may actually consider life worth more rather than less. I for example value life immensely because it is so precious. We only get one and that is your lot so it stops the "Well, they will get their reward in the next world" as being an excuse to not improve this world.

Religion gave a level of control at a time when Humanity was still in general barbarism.

I would say that the control would have come regardless and that religion was just one of many tools used. Without it others would have been used.

 

[Gaidin109]

I disagree. Considering the reality of a multitude of religions existing and many saying different things it is not a stretch to say that religion is man made and that the moral codes that come from them are also man made. I would suggest that religion just reflected the moral code that was already developing around them at the time. Much like over time religion has subsumed marriage and now considers it to be a religious construct I believe the same can be said about morals.



Have they really? Or has religion just reflected the maturing of a moral code that is required to have any form of long term civilisation?



I disagree, I would say that religion just reflects our morality and doesn't truely inform it. Much like the moral code of some progressive Christian churches is adapting to a world where homosexuality is no longer seen as taboo.



But as you are so keen in saying when defending the wrong done in religion's name "It isn't religion, it is people". So why is the same not true for the good done in religion's name? Bad people do bad things because they are bad people but good people do good things because they are religious? I disagree. It is quite possible that without religion to guide us we may actually consider life worth more rather than less. I for example value life immensely because it is so precious. We only get one and that is your lot so it stops the "Well, they will get their reward in the next world" as being an excuse to not improve this world.

See a later post for clarification. And I have never defended the Wrong done in religions name ever. I have defended the moderate interpretation of religion in spite of what wrongs are justified by it.

I would say that the control would have come regardless and that religion was just one of many tools used. Without it others would have been used.

Probably, but at what cost, and by what means. We have seen regimes like China that attempted to replace religion with a non-spiritual ideology, and it's not pretty.

 

[DAnDan]

as a muslim i beleive the quran is my proof.

I just wrote on a bit of paper I found, it says that all muslims are actually goats in disguise. Can I use that as proof?

 

[Gaidin109]

I just wrote on a bit of paper I found, it says that all muslims are actually goats in disguise. Can I use that as proof?

Not unless it was told to you by a burning bush, or a dream or some other spiritual entity such as Gabriel in his newly ironed Angel Battle Suit.

If you have none of those things, then you are a heretic and deserve to be burned or crucifed or stoned to death, your choice.

 

[DAnDan]

Not unless it was told to you by a burning bush, or a dream or some other spiritual entity such as Gabriel in his newly ironed Angel Battle Suit.

If you have none of those things, then you are a heretic and deserve to be burned or crucifed or stoned to death, your choice.

A recently cooked fillet of southern fried chicken told me it while I eat it, does that count? I think it was quite a holy bit of chicken too, tasted amazing.

 

[RDM]

See a later post for clarification.

Actually your latter post doesn't actually change anything, it was a history lesson on religion (and possibly not entirely accurate considering the dark ages weren't actually all that dark really). If the morality in religion is a reflection of society rather than driving society then a society without religion would still have the same morality it would just be reflected in a different way. We just don't know what would have developed because religion was there instead.

And I have never defended the Wrong done in religions name ever. I have defended the moderate interpretation of religion in spite of what wrongs are justified by it.

The point still stands, if the bad in religion is the fault of bad men and not the religion then surely the good in religion is the fault of good men and not the religion? Why only ascribe the positive to religion?

Probably, but at what cost, and by what means. We have seen regimes like China that attempted to replace religion with a non-spiritual ideology, and it's not pretty.

And we have plenty of history and plenty of modern day examples of using a religion that are just as nasty.

 

[Gaidin109]

A recently cooked fillet of southern fried chicken told me it while I eat it, does that count? I think it was quite a holy bit of chicken too, tasted amazing.

You ate it, Dude....

you're supposed to build a golden ark around it and then smite all the unholy with it's holy-fire laser guided rightnousness....

Haven't you seen Indiana Jones