May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[NeilF]

you seem to think that religion is the only cause of the world problems

What about race roits? nothing to with religion

The war on iraq? that was about WMDs

Imagine a world without religion for a second, you really think there will be any peace,
that the war industry will be shut down, that there will be no more guns,crime,tanks,

you really think without religon there will be no need for an army.
of course not becuase mankind will find any excuse to to fight and argue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Reasoning

Has anyone suggested that? Have the points made why the world might be better off (& certainly no worse off) without religion not been quite logical, concise and fair? Then why invent a load of pap? Doesn't surprise me though. Religion <> logical.

 

[Usher]

you seem to think that religion is the only cause of the world problems

What about race roits? nothing to with religion

The war on iraq? that was about WMDs

Imagine a world without religion for a second, you really think there will be any peace,
that the war industry will be shut down, that there will be no more guns,crime,tanks,

you really think without religon there will be no need for an army.
of course not becuase mankind will find any excuse to to fight and argue

well, for a start a lot of race riots do involve religion bu that's not the point.

you are arguing that without religion there will still be wars etc & that's absolutely true of course but with the added influx of religion thrown into the pot it multiplies conflicts ,ethnic cleaning etc a thousnd times over does it not?

 

[Shakeel]

you cant just blame religion for the world problems. there are other factors too

 

[Usher]

you cant just blame religion for the world problems. there are other factors too

I fully agree with you there but surely you can't deny that religion is involved more often than not, I only have to mention India & the bloodbath that was the birth of Pakistan in 1947 as a prime example of an actual country being created solely to keep two religions apart.

 

[NeilF]

you cant just blame religion for the world problems. there are other factors too

There goes that epic Straw Man again Not one attempt to comment on anything anyone actually said. No attempt to put your own view or logic into the conversation?



And BTW, your comment wins the "stating the bleeding obvious" award of the day...

"You can't blame religion for the world's problems... There are other factors too." - Glad you pointed that out to us all



In an attempt to help... Would the world be worse off without religion? Discuss...

 

[Shakeel]

Would the world be worse off without religion? Discuss...

yes. with religion came a lot of morals

no murder
no stealing
no adultry etc...

 

[Gaidin109]

The bottom line here is that People are responsible for all the worlds problems, everything else is just garnish.

A world without religion would be just as bad, if not worse than it is now. The moral codes that religions teach to those without education and the education they give to developing and third world countries along with the medical and food aid and charity they supply far outweight the use of religion by a bunch of nutters who would still exist without the justification.

 

[Shakeel]

The bottom line here is that People are responsible for all the worlds problems, everything else is just garnish.

A world without religion would be just as bad, if not worse than it is now. The moral codes that religions teach to those without education and the education they give to developing and third world countries along with the medical and food aid and charity they supply far outweight the use of religion by a bunch of nutters who would still exist without the justification.

well said

 

[RDM]

yes. with religion came a lot of morals

no murder
no stealing
no adultry etc...

That's not really true to be honest. The basic morals, the ones which almost everyone agrees with are just the basics of what you need to have a stable society. They are not created by religion but co-opted by them.

 

[RDM]

A world without religion would be just as bad, if not worse than it is now. The moral codes that religions teach to those without education and the education they give to developing and third world countries along with the medical and food aid and charity they supply far outweight the use of religion by a bunch of nutters who would still exist without the justification.

Why the assumption that without religion good people would not otherwise do the same aid work? If we were talking about a world were religion did not exist at all there is no reason to assume that the aid programs run by religions currently would not be run by the non religious.

 

[[TFU] Thegoon84]

 

[NeilF]

yes. with religion came a lot of morals

no murder
no stealing
no adultry etc...

Aha! The usual illogical logic that seems to follow religion around...

1) I don't believe in God, and yet strangely I don't murder, steal or cheat on my parter? How is that possible?
2) If the only thing stopping religious individuals from committing murder, stealing and committing adultery is a threat (from God), then how in reality are they worthy of Heaven? Where as, myself, not needing to be bribed or threatened into behaving, and doing these things because I know they are for the better of humanity, will go to hell? There's the unfair grading system for heaven again. Bribed into behaving=Heaven. Doing the right thing for the right reasons=Hell.


Turning the viewpoint, if we consider murder and fundamentalist terrorists, who brain wash followers into suicide bombings under the impression they will somehow be rewarded in heaven (with hurds of virgins?)... Do you think they might reconsider this if they realised they, and their innocent victims, infact will all just lose their one chance at existance?


I'm afraid the suggestion that somehow the world's moral system will crumble without religion is nonsense. Infact, I suggest with this veil of fantasy gone, our existance could be all the more genuine, real and therfore valuable to each other.

 

[NeilF]

That's what death threats, and all this fuss, is about?



It's like we're living back in the dark ages again!

 

[NeilF]

A world without religion would be just as bad, if not worse than it is now. The moral codes that religions teach to those without education and the education they give to developing and third world countries along with the medical and food aid and charity they supply far outweight the use of religion by a bunch of nutters who would still exist without the justification.

Why do morals in reality have any dependence on religion. My children (7 & 3) have not the slightest (serious) knowledge of religion, and yet are caring, considerate, compationate and loving individuals. They don't need (make believe) threats to condition them into this behaviour. They need good communication and a good example.

None of that is dependent upon religion... And I'd say them doing the right thing for the 'right reason', instead of doing the right thing due to an invisible (make believe?) threat, is far more healthy.


I suspect your train of thought, is the exact reason religion has been forced down our throats and into society though. Fear that your fellow man would fall into anarchy without a 'threat from above'...

 

[Gaidin109]

Why the assumption that without religion good people would not otherwise do the same aid work? If we were talking about a world were religion did not exist at all there is no reason to assume that the aid programs run by religions currently would not be run by the non religious.

A difficult question I agree.

What I am saying is that without some purpose, people wouldn't care one way or the other, our moral codes whether we are religious or not have been guided and moulded over generations by religion whether we like it or not.

Only one culture has been found without any form of Religion and they are somewhat unique to say the least.

In a world without any kind of religion having ever existed I believe we would not have evolved such an hightened sense of morality in general.

Religions have been responsible for far more positive things than negative and those negative things would have happened regardless due to human nature, would the same be true of the positive considering our penchant for protecting only those close to us at the expence of all else.

Religion gave a level of control at a time when Humanity was still in general barbarism.

 

[Gaidin109]

Why do morals in reality have any dependence on religion. My children (7 & 3) have not the slightest (serious) knowledge of religion, and yet are caring, considerate, compationate and loving individuals. They don't need (make believe) threats to condition them into this behaviour. They need good communication and a good example.

None of that is dependent upon religion... And I'd say them doing the right thing for the 'right reason', instead of doing the right thing due to an invisible (make believe?) threat, is far more healthy.


I suspect your train of thought, is the exact reason religion has been forced down our throats and into society though. Fear that your fellow man would fall into anarchy without a 'threat from above'...

At one time it was dependant on religion, and that is the point. We have not always been so civilized, and religion played a huge part in the civilisation of mankind. To ignore that is foolish.

Humanity doesn't have any inate moral code, if it did we wouldn't see the attrocities we do whenever the rule of law is abandoned.

Leave you Children to their own devices for a while and begin to give one more than the other and see how their moral code works then independant of any control factors, of which religion is one.


Besides most of the trouble in the world is caused in one way or another by differences, mostly ethnic and cultural not religious. Religion is just a nice convienent scapegoat for justifying it. Without the morals and law that religion brought and still brings to some people they would have no reason to justify it and it could be so much worse. The worst genocides and wars have had nothing whatsoever to do with religion and everything to do with ethnic and ideological differences.

 

[NeilF]

A difficult question I agree.

What I am saying is that without some purpose, people wouldn't care one way or the other, our moral codes whether we are religious or not have been guided and moulded over generations by religion whether we like it or not.

Here we go again... How do the ever increasing number of athiests manage to drag themselves out of bed each morning?

Seriously, you really believe people are so shallow that without a lump of fantasy they couldn't manage to function?

Religions have been responsible for far more positive things than negative and those negative things would have happened regardless due to human nature.

Quote possibly, but maybe your interpretation is askew? Maybe it was peoples general humanity and compassion, and not the result of some invisible threat from above?

 

[Shakeel]

Why do morals in reality have any dependence on religion.

I suspect your train of thought, is the exact reason religion has been forced down our throats and into society though.

Those that believe in abrahamic relgions beleive the prophet adam (peace be upon him) was the first man on earth and a prophet of god who was given revaltions and taught how to behave etc.. like no murder not stealing..morals in general

weather all people at the time beleived in relgion or not carried out the same morals becuase it makes the world a better place.

why must you always have a snap at people of think relgion is good or religious people. cant you accept the fact that some people think reliigon is a good thing to have in life.

i think your a very confused person (no offence) becuase all you basically said in this thread 'why am i going to hell when im a nice person etc....'

its been all about you. i think your trying to find god but havnt deicded waht religion to follow.

 

[NeilF]

Leave you Children to their own devices for a while and begin to give one more than the other and see how their moral code works then independant of any control factors, of which religion is one.

Again, why is religion in any way responsible for this? My children are extremely compassionate and loving, and don't need threats of an invisible being to force them into this. Instead, communication and example is all that is required to instill respect and most importantly compassion.

I would see trying to bribe them into behaving a certain way with threats from an invisible (not existant) being, as frankly the wrong thing to do.

 

[NeilF]

Those that believe in abrahamic relgions beleive the prophet adam (peace be upon him) was the first man on earth and a prophet of god who was given revaltions and taught how to behave etc.. like no murder not stealing..morals in general

weather all people at the time beleived in relgion or not carried out the same morals becuase it makes the world a better place.

why must you always have a snap at people of think relgion is good or religious people. cant you accept the fact that some people think reliigon is a good thing to have in life.

Can I ask you to comment on my 2nd point from above (read it carefully)?

2) If the only thing stopping religious individuals from committing murder, stealing and committing adultery is a threat (from God), then how in reality are they worthy of Heaven? Where as, myself, not needing to be bribed or threatened into behaving, and doing these things because I know they are for the better of humanity, will go to hell? There's the unfair grading system for heaven again. Bribed into behaving=Heaven. Doing the right thing for the right reasons=Hell.

i think your a very confused person (no offence) becuase all you basically said in this thread 'why am i going to hell when im a nice person etc....'

its been all about you. i think your trying to find god but havnt deicded waht religion to follow.

How am I confused? When I don't need make believe Gods to in someway explain things, or give my life meaning?

I hope I've given you the impression I've not just come to a snap judgement, but carefully considered the matter, and come to the conclusion that God doesn't need to exist, there's no evidence that he exists, and further, if he did create the system we find ourself in, he's mad.