May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[Amnesia]

for no other purpose than to take the (unfair) test?

unfair is he who is judging without knowing

where have you read that God will not take into consideration the circumstances in which you were born and that he would test you unfairly ?

would it not be fair to read the Quran and then judge the book ?
to read the verses without wanting to use them to attack other muslims...to read the verses without deciding before hand to become muslim.
you could give it an honest read from a neutral point of view and then tell us if you get the urge to beat a woman up or if you keep flying into the twin towers when playing microsoft flightsim....tell us if you feel happier strapping c4 to yourself when getting the subway.


atleast show some fairness yourself before screaming that you've been hard done by.

 

[NeilF]

@ niel. this is why i think your wrong. some pople are born into athiest families and they end up beleivng in god and choose a relgion to follow.

some people are born into religous families and they end up not beleiving in god.

I'm afraid you're VERY wrong! You're clearly having to pick and choose your argument! Or ignore the evidence placed carefully on your lap.

Are you suggesting every person who has ever lived has had exactly the same chance as believing in God?

Are you saying if I hadn't been born into Iran I might not stand a different chance of believing in God? Are you suggesting if I hadn't been born to a different family I might not stand a different chance of believing in God?

Any attempt by you to suggest everyone has the same chance of believing in God I'm afraid is nothing short of nonsense. So put your money where your mouth is. Does every person have exactly the same chance and believing in God?

Some people clearly have a path that makes it more likely for them to believe than others. They are born with more of the deck dealt in their favour.

The system is therefore clearly rigged and unfair. Why would a God create such a system?

 

[NeilF]

would it not be fair to read the Quran and then judge the book ?

Please do tell me I'm wrong then? What does is say about non-believers?

But don't forget this is just one point in my list of huge problems with religion/God...

 

[Amnesia]

Please do tell me I'm wrong then? What does is say about non-believers?

But don't forget this is just one point in my list of huge problems with religion/God...

Neil you have clearly seen different people get different meanings from the book....why not just read it for yourself and see what you get out of it ?
all i would ask is you read it with a clean heart.

 

[NeilF]

Neil you have clearly seen different people get different meanings from the book....why not just read it for yourself and see what you get out of it ?
all i would ask is you read it with a clean heart.

Seriously, I have no impetus to do that at all. For three reasons:-
1) I disbelieve in God/religion for too many (in my mind) logical reasons.
2) Too many religious people actually put me off religion seemingly for their blinkered illogical approach. Ignoring the utterly obvious to seemingly maintain their faith. This makes me dig my heals in deeper.
3) Given (1) and (2), I have far better things to do with my time. Like finding time to read the unabridged version of The Stand! That's a monster!

 

[Shakeel]

So put your money where your mouth is. Does every person have exactly the same chance and believing in God?

Some people clearly have a path that makes it more likely for them to believe than others. They are born with more of the deck dealt in their favour.

yes i do believe everybody has an equal chance of beleiving in god.

now i ask you

Why do some people born into athiest families turn out to beleive in god?

Why do some people born into relgious families end up not beleiving in god?

Everybody has a choice

 

[Shakeel]

Seriously, I have no impetus to do that at all.

there you go . you have taken up the choice about not looking into religion (in this case islam)

that is your choice. you being born into a certian family is not going to affect weather you look into religion

 

[NeilF]

yes i do believe everybody has an equal chance of beleiving in god.

now i ask you

Why do some people born into athiest families turn out to beleive in god?

Why do some people born into relgious families end up not beleiving in god?

Everybody has a choice

Utter total nonsense...

Are you suggesting then, across the world, per country, the percentage of people who believe in God is the same?

What about a percentage of today's population, vs that of 400 years go... or 1000 years ago... A constant never changing figure?


Yes, everyone has a chance... But your God sees fit to give some people more of a chance than others... He has created a rigged/unfair system.

there you go . you have taken up the choice about not looking into religion (in this case islam)

that is your choice. you being born into a certian family is not going to affect weather you look into religion

LOL! You're suggesting had I not been born into a family in Iran, I may not have been spoon fed it from birth instead?

Your logic and arguments make no sense at all! It's like you're blind to the obvious? I can't put it any other way?

 

[Gaidin109]

unfair is he who is judging without knowing

where have you read that God will not take into consideration the circumstances in which you were born and that he would test you unfairly ?

would it not be fair to read the Quran and then judge the book ?
to read the verses without wanting to use them to attack other muslims...to read the verses without deciding before hand to become muslim.
you could give it an honest read from a neutral point of view and then tell us if you get the urge to beat a woman up or if you keep flying into the twin towers when playing microsoft flightsim....tell us if you feel happier strapping c4 to yourself when getting the subway.


atleast show some fairness yourself before screaming that you've been hard done by.

I have read the Qur'an a few times in fact. It didn't inspire me to believe in Allah or any other God, it didn't really make me disbelieve either.

Much is said here of the Qur'an being the literal word of God, yet they quote the Hadith to illustrate this. Anyone who has read the Quran will know that the Qur'anic text is the word of God but the Hadith is various peoples interpretations and stories of the Prophet Mohammed's life and deeds, and as such are open to debate and are not regarded as Canon.

Once you realise this it explains the dichotomy between Islamic Schools and Jihad.

The other thing that annoys me is reference to Islam meaning Submission to God, when in fact it means Submission to God in Peace. A subtle but crucial difference don't you agree.

 

[Yas786]

Neil you have clearly seen different people get different meanings from the book....why not just read it for yourself and see what you get out of it ?
all i would ask is you read it with a clean heart.

Prime example is our bhavv the ocuk islamic expert, whos quite rabid in telling muslims that we need to read his version of the Quran rather than the one we have been reading for centuries.

And Neil for the love of god give up your bleating 'woe is betide me' card....you made your choice on whether to believe in God or not...now whether Gods system is unfair or rigged...only time will tell ie the day of judegement then all will be revealed. You can sit here and harp on about it over and over again but we cant change the way it is....and why concentrate on islam??...why dont you have a go at christianity and what they say about believing in God and the afterlife??...they pretty much say the same thing as islam do they not??

 

[Shakeel]

LOL! You're suggesting had I not been born into a family in Iran, I may not have been spoon fed it from birth instead?

you never answered my question. your typical deflecting tactics

why do some poeple in non muslim countires, born into no-relgious families come to beleivng in god?

 

[Yas786]

I have read the Qur'an a few times in fact. It didn't inspire me to believe in Allah or any other God, it didn't really make me disbelieve either.

Much is said here of the Qur'an being the literal word of God, yet they quote the Hadith to illustrate this. Anyone who has read the Quran will know that the Qur'anic text is the word of God but the Hadith is various peoples interpretations and stories of the Prophet Mohammed's life and deeds, and as such are open to debate and are not regarded as Canon.

Once you realise this it explains the dichotomy between Islamic Schools and Jihad.

The other thing that annoys me is reference to Islam meaning Submission to God, when in fact it means Submission to God in Peace. A subtle but crucial difference don't you agree.

Exactly and very well said Gaidin....like you said they are more stories of how the prophet lived his life and what he did in his daily life before passing away. Obviously as time has gone on, the stories have been convoluted[sp] or changed somewhat ie some slight exaggeration has happened whereas the Quran from day one has never ever changed, not one word or one verse has changed from its inception. Unlike the Bible where you have the Old testament and the new testament.

 

[NeilF]

And Neil for the love of god give up your bleating 'woe is betide me' card....you made your choice on whether to believe in God or not...now whether Gods system is unfair or rigged...only time will tell ie the day of judegement then all will be revealed. You can sit here and harp on about it over and over again but we cant change the way it is....and why concentrate on islam??...why dont you have a go at christianity and what they say about believing in God and the afterlife??...they pretty much say the same thing as islam do they not??

Off you go rambling about some unrelated points again I'll repeat my point(s) again, in attempt to see if we can get an answer.

You suggest every person has the same chance of believing in God, and therefore going to Heaven. To which I answered (and you ignored):-

Are you suggesting then, across the world, per country, the percentage of people who believe in God is the same?

What about a percentage of today's population, vs that of 400 years go... or 1000 years ago... A constant never changing figure?

Yes, everyone has a chance... But your God sees fit to give some people more of a chance than others... He has created a rigged/unfair system.​

So, let's have a black and white answer... What's your take on the percentage of believers in different countries around the world? The same? And in different periods in history? The same again? Or might they vary... Even by just 1%?

 

[Shakeel]

niel you missed my question please asnwer it

 

[Gaidin109]

Exactly and very well said Gaidin....like you said they are more stories of how the prophet lived his life and what he did in his daily life before passing away. Obviously as time has gone on, the stories have been convoluted[sp] or changed somewhat ie some slight exaggeration has happened whereas the Quran from day one has never ever changed, not one word or one verse has changed from its inception. Unlike the Bible where you have the Old testament and the new testament.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are the Hadith actually rated in someway as to their strength and relevance in relation to the Qur'anic Text?

I remember my friend explaining to me once, but we were in the middle of Northern Iraq at the time and I was a little distracted.

It's interesting also that no-one attacks the Torah in the same way as the Qur'an or the Bible which is suprising as the Torah is unchanged in thousands of years.

 

[Yas786]

Off you go rambling about some unrelated points again I'll repeat my point(s) again, in attempt to see if we can get an answer.

You suggest every person has the same chance of believing in God, and therefore going to Heaven. To which I answered (and you ignored):-

Are you suggesting then, across the world, per country, the percentage of people who believe in God is the same?

What about a percentage of today's population, vs that of 400 years go... or 1000 years ago... A constant never changing figure?

Yes, everyone has a chance... But your God sees fit to give some people more of a chance than others... He has created a rigged/unfair system.​

So, let's have a black and white answer... What's your take on the percentage of believers in different countries around the world? The same? And in different periods in history? The same again? Or might they vary... Even by just 1%?

I dont know thats why i havent answered it, cant answer a question if i dont know the answer to it can i?? and i wont even make an educated guess as to what the answer could possibly be.

God knows WTF your trying to get at in all honesty mate...some of the questions you ask or have asked have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand...all you keep harping on about is how unfair the system is or how its rigged...well newsflash your gonna have to just accept that in islam, we muslims have a higher chance of getting into heaven if we follow and live our lives by what is written in the Quran...as a non believer i dont expect you to fully comprehend that...ill admit some things within islam i dont quite get but instead of mocking and ridiculing the religion on the whole...ill ask my muslim scholar friend or ask my local imam whos very well versed in all the religious texts of the world.

 

[NeilF]

I dont know thats why i havent answered it, cant answer a question if i dont know the answer to it can i?? and i wont even make an educated guess as to what the answer could possibly be.

So you failed to answer a simple yes/no question? Try again. Take a guess or google

If we look at the percentage of believers country by country, does the figure stay the exactly same?

If we look at the percentage of the believers across the world across history, does the figure stay the exactly same?

The moment we come to the correct answer that of course the figures vary and change, we can therefore agree that where you're born changes your chance of believing. Or changing where you're born changes your chance of believing.

Is this really too large a leap in logic for you?

niel you missed my question please asnwer it

Your question being that some people in religious familes may end up no believing themselves, and vice-versa.

Not sure how stating the obvious is a question? Yes, nothing is a given, as the chance of believing is down to a host of reasons...

But this surely enforces my point. That there's a huge element of chance in someone believing in God or not. Such that different people have different chances... Therefore the chances vary from person to person.

 

[Gaidin109]

I dont know thats why i havent answered it, cant answer a question if i dont know the answer to it can i?? and i wont even make an educated guess as to what the answer could possibly be.

God knows WTF your trying to get at in all honesty mate...some of the questions you ask or have asked have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand...all you keep harping on about is how unfair the system is or how its rigged...well newsflash your gonna have to just accept that in islam, we muslims have a higher chance of getting into heaven if we follow and live our lives by what is written in the Quran...as a non believer i dont expect you to fully comprehend that...ill admit some things within islam i dont quite get but instead of mocking and ridiculing the religion on the whole...ill ask my muslim scholar friend or ask my local imam whos very well versed in all the religious texts of the world.

To be fair, you believe that you will have a greater chance of heaven because of the religion you ascribe to. Christians and Jews believe similar things which are equally valid to them.

I must admit however that I don't understand Neil's point that he as a non-believer cannot enter Heaven or Paradise or whatever you wish to call it, as he is an Atheist so doesn't believe it exists anyway.

To answer his question in part, there are far more adherents to a Faith of some description than there are Atheists like him or Agnostics like me.

 

[Yas786]

Correct me if I am wrong, but are the Hadith actually rated in someway as to their strength and relevance in relation to the Qur'anic Text?

I remember my friend explaining to me once, but we were in the middle of Northern Iraq at the time and I was a little distracted.

It's interesting also that no-one attacks the Torah in the same way as the Qur'an or the Bible which is suprising as the Torah is unchanged in thousands of years.

Well from what i have been told and how ive been raised is that the Quran rules over everything including the Hadiths....now some of the Hadiths have come from the Quran itself. But when it comes to strength and relevance its always the Qurans words over everything else. So if its a quranic hadith being compared to say the prophet muhammads[pbuh] hadith then the quranic hadith will take precedence. An example of what im trying to say is that say for instance the Quran says pork and alcohol is strictly forbidden and in the prophet muhammads[pbuh] hadith it says its permitted...in that case the Quran takes precedence but that sort of example would never come about as the prophet made it quite clear that both pork and alcohol is strictly forbidden.

I just confirmed this with my mum as well who is very religious and she basically confirmed what i was thinking.

 

[NeilF]

I must admit however that I don't understand Neil's point that he as a non-believer cannot enter Heaven or Paradise or whatever you wish to call it, as he is an Atheist so doesn't believe it exists anyway.

Maybe you can clarify then - Does Islam's God welcome me into Heaven if I don't believe in him? Do I get the same quota of virgins?