May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[Amnesia]

Maybe you can clarify then - Does Islam's God welcome me into Heaven if I don't believe in him?

it's unlikely God is on the forums to answer your questions Neil.

no seriously how would anyone here know who makes it to Heaven or not....these are silly questions.

but part of being muslim is believing there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God.(wiki)

 

[Gaidin109]

Maybe you can clarify then - Does Islam's God welcome me into Heaven if I don't believe in him? Do I get the same quota of virgins?

Now I see why your so concerned over it. The Virgins...

Islam does actually accept other Faith's such as Christians and Jews, even according to some more modern scholars Hindus as people of the Book in the case of the Abrahamic Faith's.

Being Ignorant of the Quranic teaching is not a bar to Heaven, your total disbelief in the God is however.

As Christianity is somewhat more lenient to those of the Atheistic persuasion it could be argued that as their God would allow you entrance, then by default so would the Islamic one as they are one and the same.

 

[Yas786]

To be fair, you believe that you will have a greater chance of heaven because of the religion you ascribe to. Christians and Jews believe similar things which are equally valid to them.

I must admit however that I don't understand Neil's point that he as a non-believer cannot enter Heaven or Paradise or whatever you wish to call it, as he is an Atheist so doesn't believe it exists anyway.

To answer his question in part, there are far more adherents to a Faith of some description than there are Atheists like him or Agnostics like me.

Quite true Gaidin...if i was a non muslim or non believer ie Atheist then things would be different of course but because i was born a muslim and raised a muslim...its what i believe in.

I dont know if that sort of answers Neils question in all honesty...but i dont believe the time, location or anything like that has anything to do with your circumstances....i mean there are plenty of non muslims out there who have become muslims or are about to become muslims...my fiancee is a prime example of this...her whole family are atheists but she went out, did a lot of reading up on various faiths and felt islam was the one for her...no one forced her to feel or think that way, it was purely her choice and neither is she some raging fundamentalist or extremist lol....quite the opposite in that like me shes very moderate...in fact me and her only got together 6 mths ago and she had been muslim for over 2 yrs by then. As for her family??..they have absolutely no issue with her becoming a muslim or her marrying me...in fact they are overjoyed which i found a bit strange tbh...but then unlike the majority of atheists they arent ignorant to what the media spouts off when it comes to muslims...sure there are bad muslims and they realise this but they dont pigeon hole all muslims into one big pot. Also because they see their daughter praying and reading the Quran they find it absolutely fascinating...in fact a few weeks ago her father joined me for friday prayers and he wasnt heckled nor was he beaten for entering a mosque lol...in fact my imam and him had a pretty long talk on things and he found it quite interesting and funnily enough has started reading up more on islam.

See i dont have an issue for people criticising islam as a whole...yes there are some terrible parts to islam but it doesnt take a lot of effort to go out and seek the knowledge so to speak. Every religion regardless of how peaceful it is, has its ugly side but i find people tend to place more importance on the ugly side of religion. I prefer people to have a bit of objectiveness about them ie see both sides of the coin as opposed to seeing only side.

 

[Yas786]

Maybe you can clarify then - Does Islam's God welcome me into Heaven if I don't believe in him? Do I get the same quota of virgins?

And as its been told to you time and time again...flogging a dead horse here...no you will not get into heaven via our interpretation because you are not a muslim...i mean it doesnt take a genius to figure that out does it??.

Now ask yourself or maybe a christian or Jew if you will get into heaven if you dont believe in their God....bet you the answer will be a resounding no.

it's unlikely God is on the forums to answer your questions Neil.

no seriously how would anyone here know who makes it to Heaven or not....these are silly questions.

but part of being muslim is believing there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God.(wiki)

Hmmm Amnesia i think your a secret closet muslim...come on come out man....dont be afraid its ok bro i got your back

 

[Gaidin109]

Quite true Gaidin...if i was a non muslim or non believer ie Atheist then things would be different of course but because i was born a muslim and raised a muslim...its what i believe in.

I dont know if that sort of answers Neils question in all honesty...but i dont believe the time, location or anything like that has anything to do with your circumstances....i mean there are plenty of non muslims out there who have become muslims or are about to become muslims...my fiancee is a prime example of this...her whole family are atheists but she went out, did a lot of reading up on various faiths and felt islam was the one for her...no one forced her to feel or think that way, it was purely her choice and neither is she some raging fundamentalist or extremist lol....quite the opposite in that like me shes very moderate...in fact me and her only got together 6 mths ago and she had been muslim for over 2 yrs by then. As for her family??..they have absolutely no issue with her becoming a muslim or her marrying me...in fact they are overjoyed which i found a bit strange tbh...but then unlike the majority of atheists they arent ignorant to what the media spouts off when it comes to muslims...sure there are bad muslims and they realise this but they dont pigeon hole all muslims into one big pot. Also because they see their daughter praying and reading the Quran they find it absolutely fascinating...in fact a few weeks ago her father joined me for friday prayers and he wasnt heckled nor was he beaten for entering a mosque lol...in fact my imam and him had a pretty long talk on things and he found it quite interesting.

I think he is talking about the cultural influence a country or more accurately a region has on the beliefs you are bought up with.

For example, If you are born in Saudi, in all likelihood you will become a Muslim, whereas if you are born in Italy you would be more likely Catholic.

Those with Muslim Parents are more likely to be be Muslim's themselves and those with Jewish Parents more likely to be Jewish. As in all thing's there are exceptions, and the moderate a faith becomes the more exceptions there are, as it becomes more acceptable to the society in which they live to choose their own beliefs and influences. This can be seen most in Protestant Western Countries because protestantism is generally more flexible in it's beliefs.

 

[Yas786]

I think he is talking about the cultural influence a country or more accurately a region has on the beliefs you are bought up with.

For example, If you are born in Saudi, in all likelihood you will become a Muslim, whereas if you are born in Italy you would be more likely Catholic.

Those with Muslim Parents are more likely to be be Muslim's themselves and those with Jewish Parents more likely to be Jewish. As in all thing's there are exceptions, and the moderate a faith becomes the more exceptions there are, as it becomes more acceptable to the society in which they live to choose their own beliefs and influences. This can be seen most in Protestant Western Countries because protestantism is generally more flexible in it's beliefs.

Ahh ok i stand corrected then...thanks for clarifying that bit for me.

 

[NeilF]

And as its been told to you time and time again...flogging a dead horse here...no you will not get into heaven via our interpretation because you are not a muslim...i mean it doesnt take a genius to figure that out does it??.

So 'genius'... Seeing now as you've failed to answer a simple black and white question three times. I'll do it for you, and I'll try to logically walk you through the points that follow...


- If you look at the percentage of people who believe in God (ignoring which flavour) country by country the figure - surprise surprise - does indeed change.

- If you look at the percentage of people who believe in God (ignoring which flavour) across the globe in different years/centuries I'm certain the figures change likewise.


So, we can clearly deduce that depending where you're born, and when you're born, affects your likelihood to believe in God, and therefore end up in Heaven. There's seemingly no denying this? (But off you go!)


A few posts back you implied everyone had the same chance to believe, but we've clearly proved this just is not the case. How does God decide who has the better starting hand of cards in this game?

The moment you conclude that the system on which we're being tested on isn't fair, then how does it make sense that an ultimate being would create/use such a system?


We can extend this point that random events not only affect your propensity to believe, but also affect your likelihood to commit serious crimes. If you're dealt a particularly bad hand at birth, this will make it more likely your are a serious sinner than others (statistically).

This makes the test look even more unfair and therefore even more of a waste of time. Some people are given a life that makes it easier for them to commit serious sins?


What is the point in a system/test that is just so unfair, and unltimately therefore a waste of time? Why create it? Why make people suffer via it? Or worse still fail by it and spend eternity in hell when a different hand of cards at the beginning would have given very different results?



If you can't follow that simple train of thought I give up... Anyone else? Am I making things too complicated? Or being too irrational?

 

[Gaidin109]

So 'genius'... Seeing now as you've failed to answer a simple black and white question three times. I'll do it for you, and I'll try to logically walk you through the points that follow...


- If you look at the percentage of people who believe in God (ignoring which flavour) country by country the figure - surprise surprise - does indeed change.

- If you look at the percentage of people who believe in God (ignoring which flavour) across the globe in different years/centuries I'm certain the figures change likewise.


So, we can clearly deduce that depending where you're born, and when you're born, affects your likelihood to believe in God, and therefore end up in Heaven. There's seemingly no denying this? (But off you go!)


A few posts back you implied everyone had the same chance to believe, but we've clearly proved this just is not the case. How does God decide who has the better starting hand of cards in this game?

The moment you conclude that the system on which we're being tested on isn't fair, then how does it make sense that an ultimate being would create/use such a system?


We can extend this point that random events not only affect your propensity to believe, but also affect your likelihood to commit serious crimes. If you're dealt a particularly bad hand at birth, this will make it more likely your are a serious sinner than others (statistically).

This makes the test look even more unfair and therefore even more of a waste of time. Some people are given a life that makes it easier for them to commit serious sins?


What is the point in a system/test that is just so unfair, and unltimately therefore a waste of time? Why create it? Why make people suffer via it? Or worse still fail by it and spend eternity in hell when a different hand of cards at the beginning would have given very different results?



If you can't follow that simple train of thought I give up... Anyone else? Am I making things too complicated? Or being too irrational?

Hardly a simple train of thought when you ingnore the simplest fact.

People of all faiths and none live everywhere and at anytime.

The cultural and familial influences may change given the location and the Era in which you are born, but you can be born anywhere and the odds are you will be born into a culture that ascribes to one God or another depending on the Era and Location.

Also Religion is more apparent in regions of the world where high poverty and crime are the norm, so that kind of refutes what you are saying.

Everyone does have the same opportunity to believe as we all have freewill. That it may seem unfair to someone who doesn't believe suggests a need to understand their own confusion over their latent spirituality, but an inability to do so.

Those who seem to have the least reason to believe are commonly the ones who believe the most, it is a complex question and one which has dogged theologians and sociologists for years.

 

[Yas786]

If you can't follow that simple train of thought I give up... Anyone else? Am I making things too complicated? Or being too irrational?

Oh i can follow it no problem but personally id give up in all honesty because thats all in your opinion....you have spouted off percentages which you have provided no proof of...it could very well be the other way round as well.

Im sorry i havent been able to answer your question...reason being is that rather than make a wild guess, which is what ultimately you have done above id rather not answer then be corrected and look foolish.

As an aside all this bad card rubbish doesnt gel with me sorry...ive read countless stories about people who were born into a bad house or had terrible parents but managed to somehow become religious or better people with or without religion.

My opinion is that its down to the person him or herself to make themselves better human beings...some people will do it via religion and some wont. I will say what Gaidin said earlier in that if you are born into a religious household then theres more chance that you will become religious yourself although thats not always the case. Dont be fooled that everything is black and white....nothing ever is.

 

[Amnesia]

Hmmm Amnesia i think your a secret closet muslim...come on come out man....dont be afraid its ok bro i got your back

one of these days im going to get round to reading the Quran and the Bible. unlikely i will start practicing a religion but even if i don't they must be fascinating to read that they have got so many followers.

il let you know when i have read the Quran...if bhaavs words are anything to go by i should become a sexist wife beater who will take his wifes car keys from her and fill it with semtex.

oh she is in for a rough time ahead

 

[Amnesia]

A few posts back you implied everyone had the same chance to believe, but we've clearly proved this just is not the case. How does God decide who has the better starting hand of cards in this game?

they do have the same chance......its an individual thing in your own mind as soon as you stop looking at others and worrying what they are doing.

if you replaced your word with likelyhood then i would agree with you.

 

[Dark_Angel]

I think people are becoming confused with culture a lot of the time here...

 

[NeilF]

Hardly a simple train of thought when you ingnore the simplest fact.

People of all faiths and none live everywhere and at anytime.

The cultural and familial influences may change given the location and the Era in which you are born, but you can be born anywhere and the odds are you will be born into a culture that ascribes to one God or another depending on the Era and Location.

Also Religion is more apparent in regions of the world where high poverty and crime are the norm, so that kind of refutes what you are saying.

Everyone does have the same opportunity to believe as we all have freewill. That it may seem unfair to someone who doesn't believe suggests a need to understand their own confusion over their latent spirituality, but an inability to do so.

Those who seem to have the least reason to believe are commonly the ones who believe the most, it is a complex question and one which has dogged theologians and sociologists for years.

But you concur, at a grand scale, statistically peoples likelihood in believing changes through different time periods, and likewise, different cultures/countries also give different statistical likelihoods in belief?

The moment any change in just time or location, for example, gives a different likelihood in belief, then the system is shown to surely be unfair.


We can then look down at an even more granular level suggesting even different individual chance circumstance might result in belief or not.

For example, had I not practiced my 12+, maybe I wouldn't have passed and gone to grammar school. I may therefore not have got the logical brain in my head that leads me to my conclusion on faith?

Ifs, buts and maybes, but there is so much chance involved in belief, and indeed sinning, that life seems more a lottery than any true test.


Is that not a fairly rational assessment?

 

[Gaidin109]

But you concur, at a grand scale, statistically peoples likelihood in believing changes through different time periods, and likewise, different cultures/countries also give different statistical likelihoods in belief?

The moment any change in just time or location, for example, gives a different likelihood in belief, then the system is shown to surely be unfair.


We can then look down at an even more granular level suggesting even different individual chance circumstance might result in belief or not.

For example, had I not practiced my 12+, maybe I wouldn't have passed and gone to grammar school. I may therefore not have got the logical brain in my head that leads me to my conclusion on faith?

Ifs, buts and maybes, but there is so much chance involved in belief, and indeed sinning, that life seems more a lottery than any true test.


Is that not a fairly rational assessment?

I agree it is rational and makes sense, but if you look at it from a slightly different perspective however it can be seen to be a Test.

Some Religions, especially the eldest Vedic ones ascribe to Resurrection and Kharma. They believe that each life has it own inherent test of the overall Soul of an individual.

If you take what you said from this perspective then the 'lottery' becomes just one of an infinite number of tests on the way to the Souls eventual ascension into eternal life or Heaven.

For example your lack of Faith could be just another experience or Test neccessary for that next step toward your eventual acceptance into Heaven.

The point of Faith is that you believe regardless of the lack of evidence or logic, that is the true test.

 

[Yas786]

one of these days im going to get round to reading the Quran and the Bible. unlikely i will start practicing a religion but even if i don't they must be fascinating to read that they have got so many followers.

il let you know when i have read the Quran...if bhaavs words are anything to go by i should become a sexist wife beater who will take his wifes car keys from her and fill it with semtex.

oh she is in for a rough time ahead

Well i will suggest when you get around to reading it, do it with an open mind and try not to take things too literally...thats where most of the problems arise from when you get religious nutjobs taking verses or words from the Quran quite literally and using them to further their own ends and needs.

And if you do become a sexist wife beater then let me know so i can come round and watch...ill have the popcorn ready

As for bhavv...all i can say is that he must be pretty cosy in that little bubble that he lives in...completely and utterly devoid of any sound knowledge of Islam other than what he reads on jihadwatch, other biased anti islam sites and youtube of course

 

[NeilF]

I agree it is rational and makes sense, but if you look at it from a slightly different perspective however it can be seen to be a Test.

Some Religions, especially the eldest Vedic ones ascribe to Resurrection and Kharma. They believe that each life has it own inherent test of the overall Soul of an individual.

If you take what you said from this perspective then the 'lottery' becomes just one of an infinite number of tests on the way to the Souls eventual ascension into eternal life or Heaven.

For example your lack of Faith could be just another experience or Test neccessary for that next step toward your eventual acceptance into Heaven.

The point of Faith is that you believe regardless of the lack of evidence or logic, that is the true test.

Fair enough, but you've had to pick a specific religion there that counters my seemingly clear/obvious issues with "the system".

I don't think there's any denying that some people have an easier path in finding religion than others, and that some people have an easier path in not committing serious sin than others.... So I'm confused how any of the major/traditional relgions rationalise this 'unfairness'...

Having multiple goes at it, would seem to make more sense... But that certainly doesn't appear to be any more likely? Again, what is the point in these series of tests, when the only difference are the trials put before you, which inheriantly will tailor you character?

ie: If we consider if I'd been born in Hitlers exact shoes, I too would have been just as evil... So what is the point of that test if any/all individuals put in those shoes would do the same.

And if suggest, had you been born in Hitler's exact shoes, and you would not have acted the same, because you are a better person, then the problem is clearly then why did God decide to give you a better start/mindset than poor old Hitler? Favouritism? Unfairness?



It just seems, which ever way you consider it, and look at it, the test we are suppose to be taking is utterly useless.

Consider an exam where everyone's questions are totally different, and where some people have easier, or less questions in order to pass? Because that's what 'this test' undoubtably seems like...


Seems far more likely that infact this is not a test, and that the fact we see no evidence for a God, is because there simply isn't one... Why try and shoe horn an answer into somewhere where there's no question?

 

[Gaidin109]

Fair enough, but you've had to pick a specific religion there that counters my seemingly clear/obvious issues with "the system".

It was just the best reference I had at the time, other religions such as Buddism and to some extent Christianity and even Islam have some form of rebirth and resurrection aspect to them.

I don't think there's any denying that some people have an easier path in finding religion than others, and that some people have an easier path in not committing serious sin than others.... So I'm confused how any of the major/traditional relgions rationalise this 'unfairness'...

You can't really define whether one person's journey is any more difficult than another because it's difficulty is entirely subjective to the individual.

Having multiple goes at it, would seem to make more sense... But that certainly doesn't appear to be any more likely? Again, what is the point in these series of tests, when the only difference are the trials put before you, which inheriantly will tailor you character?

ie: If we consider if I'd been born in Hitlers exact shoes, I too would have been just as evil... So what is the point of that test if any/all individuals put in those shoes would do the same.

And if suggest, had you been born in Hitler's exact shoes, and you would not have acted the same, because you are a better person, then the problem is clearly then why did God decide to give you a better start/mindset than poor old Hitler? Favouritism? Unfairness?

If you were on this hypothetical journey to some form of spiritual ascension would you not need to experience everything, whether that be Evil or Good or inbetween?

It just seems, which ever way you consider it, and look at it, the test we are suppose to be taking is utterly useless.

Consider an exam where everyone's questions are totally different, and where some people have easier, or less questions in order to pass? Because that's what 'this test' undoubtably seems like...


Seems far more likely that infact this is not a test, and that the fact we see no evidence for a God, is because there simply isn't one... Why try and shoe horn an answer into somewhere where there's no question?

Who say's that this even happens in linear time, Quantum Physics tells us that Time need not neccessarily be linear, neither does this specific Universe need to be the only one, Who is to say that we are just a single aspect of a vastly more complex entity spread across multiple Universe's experiencing multiple lifetimes simultaneously on this hypothetical journey.

You could indeed have been the incarnation of Hitler in this Universe where Hitler was as we see him, yet in other's he could be slightly different ranging across every human experience of each aspect of humanity and how each reacts with the environment and events around it.

Again with the anaology of an Exam, everyone's question are different, because everyone experience is different. There are no wrong answers only experience and growth through that experience, is every Soul at the same level of evolution toward our hypothetical goal?, I doubt that would be realistic due to the nature of Mankind. What may seem easier to one Examinee may simply be because they are at a different level of growth spiritually than another.

Just because we do not have all the answers, doesn't mean there are not Questions.

Now we really are off topic discussing relative theological philosophy, with a bit of Quantum Physics thrown in. I wonder what Bhavv will make of this. I may have to start my own religion...

 

[bhavv]

Prime example is our bhavv the ocuk islamic expert, whos quite rabid in telling muslims that we need to read his version of the Quran rather than the one we have been reading for centuries.

Seriously?

The Quran that muslims have been reading for centuries calls for non muslims to be killed, for music to be banned, and for adulterers and gays to be stoned to death, and this is the interperation that most Muslim states have also been following for centuries.

Your false interperation of Islam has largely only existed since Muslims moved into the free democratic world and use lies to spread a false and more politically correct form of the religion which has absolutely nothing to do with what Islam actually teaches.

both pork and alcohol is strictly forbidden.

And how is that any better than music being forbidden? What exactly do you think happens to people if they eat pork or drink alcohol?

 

[Shakeel]

bhavv is back.....

 

[bhavv]

bhavv is back.....

Your point being? I never left.