May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[Yas786]

Seriously?

The Quran that muslims have been reading for centuries calls for non muslims to be killed, for music to be banned, and for adulterers and gays to be stoned to death, and this is the interperation that most Muslim states have also been following for centuries.

Your false interperation of Islam has largely only existed since Muslims moved into the free democratic world and use lies to spread a false and more politically correct form of the religion which has absolutely nothing to do with what Islam actually teaches.



And how is that any better than music being forbidden? What exactly do you think happens to people if they eat pork or drink alcohol?

Ya S'riously...

And music isnt forbidden...stop reading the extremist version of the Quran and islam....if that was the case then a hell of a lot of muslims would be destined for hell...you really are showing yourself to be quite the blinkered person that we all think you are...well except for your buddies tip top, izzy and slug....funnily enough they have got bored and left the thread...left you all alone.

As for pork and alcohol??...im sure you can find out why they are forbidden...i mean you are the self proclaimed expert of islam are you not??....if in doubt just refer to your extremist version of the Quran...

 

[NeilF]

You can't really define whether one person's journey is any more difficult than another because it's difficulty is entirely subjective to the individual.

I think we can categorically say different people have different journeys, and these will lend themselves more or less towards believing, and more or less towards serious sins.

Had I been a child of Sawny Bean, I would have been a monstrous murderer surely destined for hell. But then we'll have religious folk at this point suggesting a special case would exist for such individuals who have such an appallingly bad starting hand in the this game (only one card in five card poker if you would), which then means instead now, they have preferencial treatment the regular players don't get.

I find it impossible to believe anyone can suggest every person who's ever lived has had the same chance of belief and committing serious sins. It's madness to suggest, so where classical religions suggestion that you live and what you do in your life destines you to heaven or hell just seems to unfair to be true.

Who say's that this even happens in linear time, Quantum Physics tells us that Time need not neccessarily be linear, neither does this specific Universe need to be the only one, Who is to say that we are just a single aspect of a vastly more complex entity spread across multiple Universe's experiencing multiple lifetimes simultaneously on this hypothetical journey.

You could indeed have been the incarnation of Hitler in this Universe where Hitler was as we see him, yet in other's he could be slightly different ranging across every human experience of each aspect of humanity and how each reacts with the environment and events around it.

Again with the anaology of an Exam, everyone's question are different, because everyone experience is different. There are no wrong answers only experience and growth through that experience, is every Soul at the same level of evolution toward our hypothetical goal?, I doubt that would be realistic due to the nature of Mankind. What may seem easier to one Examinee may simply be because they are at a different level of growth spiritually than another.

In such a 'test' what is the point, if in each encarnation nothing is kept from the previous 'lesson'.



All this religious questioning just hits me like the early astronomers designing yet more and more elaborate models trying to explain the movement of the planets. Yet more and more cogs and wheels to try and explain what they saw in the sky. When, all the time, the simplest solution, was the correct one... It just required us to step down off our pedastal and realise we were not the most important thing in the solar system, and everything did not revolve us... The simplest solution, the most logical solution, was the correct solution.

I see the same thing with the Universe. We need to realise we are not the center of it, or the most important thing, it does not revolve around us... We need not invent extra cogs where they are not require - There is no God.

 

[e36Adz]

Being muslim, I have to actually agree with bhavv here, the Islam that we see practised here in the west is not the actual Islam. Yes the west allows people freedom to choose, and it does not stop muslims from praying, nor does it force muslims to drink alcohol so all in all, it's a cosy place for muslims to live.

That's doesn't mean I agree with bhavvs version either. Islam calls for muslims to kill non believers? Well no, it doesn't, however when you are under attack rather then run away or flee, it commands you to fight back even if you face certain death, because death is not something muslims should fear, it is only God that we fear. You are permitted to kill your enemy if he is attacking you in your own home, if he has invaded your country and is threatening your family. Most people would agree this is not unjust. In an islamic system where marriage is available to anyone who seeks it, where men and women don't freely intermingle, where women are not exploited, where it is permissible for a man to marry more then 1 woman etc etc the penalty for someone who commits adultery is death. Islam recognises the nature of man has given him a halaal or permissible way to satisfy his desires, if he still commits adultery the punishment is stoning to death you are correct. If someone steals, the punishment is cutting off the hands... but in an Islamic society everyone has to contribute a % of their wealth to zakah/charity, and it will eradicate poverty. The problem here is this Islamic system doesn't exist in the world today so you can't go around talking of the punishments when the system itself doesn't exist.

I believe that most muslims themselves haven't recognised that all this in the west isn't really Islam. Yet they have shut their eyes to it because they are living comfortable lives. There are plenty of hadith to even support that most muslims will be deceived in the last age.

 

[Gaidin109]

I think we can categorically say different people have different journeys, and these will lend themselves more or less towards believing, and more or less towards serious sins.

Had I been a child of Sawny Bean, I would have been a monstrous murderer surely destined for hell. But then we'll have religious folk at this point suggesting a special case would exist for such individuals who have such an appallingly bad starting hand in the this game (only one card in five card poker if you would), which then means instead now, they have preferencial treatment the regular players don't get.

I find it impossible to believe anyone can suggest every person who's ever lived has had the same chance of belief and committing serious sins. It's madness to suggest, so where classical religions suggestion that you live and what you do in your life destines you to heaven or hell just seems to unfair to be true.

So simply because your Parents or your Environment are not ideal, you have a greater propensity to Sin. Whatever happened to Freewill.

What about the real evidence that shows the more 'difficult' the environment, culture or individual circumstances the greater the propensity to ascribe to some form of religion?

This flies in the face of what you say. The evidence would actually suggest that the easier your lifestyle, the less likely you are to be religious.

In such a 'test' what is the point, if in each encarnation nothing is kept from the previous 'lesson'.

How can you know that. What makes you, you? Why do you think, react and behave the way you do?, some can be Genetics, Culture, Environment, but then everyone subjected to the same conditions would react the same, especially at a youg age.

Ever heard of Racial Memory?

All this religious questioning just hits me like the early astronomers designing yet more and more elaborate models trying to explain the movement of the planets. Yet more and more cogs and wheels to try and explain what they saw in the sky. When, all the time, the simplest solution, was the correct one... It just required us to step down off our pedastal and realise we were not the most important thing in the solar system, and everything did not revolve us... The simplest solution, the most logical solution, was the correct solution.

I see the same thing with the Universe. We need to realise we are not the center of it, or the most important thing, it does not revolve around us... We need not invent extra cogs where they are not require - There is no God.

Actually, regarding the universe, the simplest answer turned out to be erroneous. Cosmology and Physics are increasingly more complex in their quest for a unifying theory.

You cannot realistically state THERE IS NO GOD, as you cannot even know the nature of the God you preclude from existence. Forget about Mankinds primitive attempts to create some kind of anthropolgical personification of God, without understanding the Universe we cannot preclude the existence of some kind of Universal conciousness and to state otherwise is arrogant in the extreme.

 

[bhavv]

Being muslim, I have to actually agree with bhavv here, the Islam that we see practised here in the west is not the actual Islam. Yes the west allows people freedom to choose, and it does not stop muslims from praying, nor does it force muslims to drink alcohol so all in all, it's a cosy place for muslims to live.

That's doesn't mean I agree with bhavvs version either. Islam calls for muslims to kill non believers? Well no, it doesn't

Sura (9:123) - O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

So are you telling me that your Koran doesnt contain that verse? I doubt that.

Ya S'riously...

And music isnt forbidden...

As for pork and alcohol??...

Plenty of Muslims in the west drink alcohol, and even eat pork, so why exactly do you consider your religion less extremist for forbidding either of these things over Music in your completely incorrect opinion?

You have been offered so many freedoms living in the West that, if you actually lived under Islamic Law, you would never have at all as a Muslim.

 

[NeilF]

So simply because your Parents or your Environment are not ideal, you have a greater propensity to Sin. Whatever happened to Freewill.

What about the real evidence that shows the more 'difficult' the environment, culture or individual circumstances the greater the propensity to ascribe to some form of religion?

This flies in the face of what you say. The evidence would actually suggest that the easier your lifestyle, the less likely you are to be religious.

You've surely just agreed with me then?

My point is that the suggestion that everyone has an equal chance to believe in a God, and an equal chance to commit (or not commit) a serious sin, is nonsense.

Place myself or you (at birth) in a handful of different people's shoes, and the result (for yuo or me) will be completely different each time... Heaven or hell is a roll of a dice away.

The test (resulting in heaven or hell) is ultimately completely unfair so seemingly pointless...

This seems to result in four conclusions:-
1) God is unfair/malicious.
2) The test as we see it is not as explained correctly to us by 'religious experts'. So if they've got that fundamental stuff wrong, why not be wrong about the 'God bit' too?
3) There is no God.

(3) Is the simplest and tidiest and most logical... But brings us of course onto... (see below)

You cannot realistically state THERE IS NO GOD, as you cannot even know the nature of the God you preclude from existence. Forget about Mankinds primitive attempts to create some kind of anthropolgical personification of God, without understanding the Universe we cannot preclude the existence of some kind of Universal conciousness and to state otherwise is arrogant in the extreme.

Of course not. Just as you cannot state children only grow taller when the magical rack gorilla appears each night and pulls them longer in their sleep. It's impossible to disprove the unprovable.

But I can:-
1) see a reason why a God was invented in earlier times in history - to explain things we simply could not explain (ignorance).
2) See absolutely no reason to introduce a God to explain anything we see today. It makes things unecessarily complex, or indeed daft.


Finally if there is a God or Universal conciousness, what is the point in not contacting us? Why pretend to not be there? Why hide all foot prints in the sand to appear not there?

 

[e36Adz]

...
2) The test as we see it is not as explained correctly to us by 'religious experts'...

This tbh.

You still seem to have the same questions that you had several pages ago, well at least the last time I checked this thread anyway. The best way for you to understand is by reading islamic books by islamic scholars. I doubt there are any 'religious experts' in this thread.

Finally if there is a God or Universal conciousness, what is the point in not contacting us? Why pretend to not be there? Why hide all foot prints in the sand to appear not there?

According to Islam, EVERY nation was sent a warner. A messenger/prophet was sent to every group or nation of people in every part of the world, with the last of all being the prophet Muhammed pbuh who's message, the Quran, is still intact in the original arabic and it has reached all 4 corners of the Earth. It has been preserved through being memorised by heart by millions of muslims therefore, even if every Quran was erased tomorrow, it lives on in the hearts of muslims worldwide.

 

[Gaidin109]

You've surely just agreed with me then?

My point is that the suggestion that everyone has an equal chance to believe in a God, and an equal chance to commit (or not commit) a serious sin, is nonsense.

Place myself or you (at birth) in a handful of different people's shoes, and the result (for yuo or me) will be completely different each time... Heaven or hell is a roll of a dice away.

The test (resulting in heaven or hell) is ultimately completely unfair so seemingly pointless...

This seems to result in four conclusions:-
1) God is unfair/malicious.
2) The test as we see it is not as explained correctly to us by 'religious experts'. So if they've got that fundamental stuff wrong, why not be wrong about the 'God bit' too?
3) There is no God.

(3) Is the simplest and tidiest and most logical... But brings us of course onto... (see below)




Of course not. Just as you cannot state children only grow taller when the magical rack gorilla appears each night and pulls them longer in their sleep. It's impossible to disprove the unprovable.

But I can:-
1) see a reason why a God was invented in earlier times in history - to explain things we simply could not explain (ignorance).
2) See absolutely no reason to introduce a God to explain anything we see today. It makes things unecessarily complex, or indeed daft.


Finally if there is a God or Universal conciousness, what is the point in not contacting us? Why pretend to not be there? Why hide all foot prints in the sand to appear not there?

So you are saying it is unfair that we are not all born into abject poverty or adverse enviromental and social areas, so that we all have the same opportunity to find our spirituality?

Just because you live a deprived life doesn't make you more likely to commit murder or anything. We all have freewill, so we all have a choice to accept a belief structure or not. As all faiths have a 'rebirth' system when you first adhere to their faith, levels the playing field spiritually.

I could easiy disprove your rack gorilla by observation of the child throughout several nights and taking measurements.

You seem intent on ascribing a specific personification to God to prove you point. Anthropomorphism of God is why all these arguements for and against a definitive God fail.

We cannot know definitively one way or another, This is why I am agnostic. Life is short, so it won't be long until we find out one way or another.

 

[bhavv]

According to Islam, EVERY nation was sent a warner. A messenger/prophet was sent to every group or nation of people in every part of the world, with the last of all being the prophet Muhammed pbuh who's message, the Quran, is still intact in the original arabic and it has reached all 4 corners of the Earth. It has been preserved through being memorised by heart by millions of muslims therefore, even if every Quran was erased tomorrow, it lives on in the hearts of muslims worldwide.

But how do you know that those prophets werent just crazy people and that they were genuinely sent by the Gods?

I could easiy disprove your rack gorilla by observation of the child throughout several nights and taking measurements.

The gorilla could be invisible and undetectable to you or anyone else, or simply just vanish right before anyone could detect it. So your statement is not evident that a magical, invisible, child stretching gorilla cant exist.

 

[RDM]

Oh i can follow it no problem but personally id give up in all honesty because thats all in your opinion....you have spouted off percentages which you have provided no proof of...it could very well be the other way round as well.

To be honest I don't think you are following what he is saying because even if the percentages are the other way round his point is still valid. According to your belief system God has made it much harder for me to get in to Heaven than you. I was not born to a muslim family and my upbringing/mental make up means I need proof that God has not seen fit to provide. So if what you believe is the truth then I was effectively born to go to hell.

 

[bhavv]

So if what you believe is the truth then I was effectively born to go to hell.

Stop telling lies. Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion to all non muslims.

It doesnt say anywhere in Islam that non believers are going to go to hell, and suffer in eternal hellfire for being the evil and misguided infidels and kuffar that extremists say they are.

 

[Gaidin109]

To be honest I don't think you are following what he is saying because even if the percentages are the other way round his point is still valid. According to your belief system God has made it much harder for me to get in to Heaven than you. I was not born to a muslim family and my upbringing/mental make up means I need proof that God has not seen fit to provide. So if what you believe is the truth then I was effectively born to go to hell.

Equally Spawn is destined to oblivion because of your beliefs. All of us are according to the Atheist's.

Christianity the same, Judaism the same and so on. Whatever 'Heaven' you belief in is individual in nature.

Islam only proscribes Hell to those who recieved Islamic teaching and rejected it. As a non-believer you are quite safe.

 

[bhavv]

No, just about every human is destined to hell because of 'RELIGIOUS' beliefs, according to those 'RELIGIONS'.

You eat pork? HELL.

You drink alcohol? HELL.

You have sex before marriage? HELL.

You ever deny the word of God? HELL.

You dont believe in God? HELL.

You do believe in God, but only according to your religion? HELL. (according to every other religion).

Actually, everysingle human is going to hell according to religious belief.

 

[e36Adz]

But how do you know that those prophets werent just crazy people and that they were genuinely sent by the Gods?

There may well have been many 'crazy' people along the way however, God always sent his messengers with signs and proofs. It all comes down too... was Muhammed pbuh a prophet, or wasnt he? The argument and debate has never been about anything else really because if he truly was a prophet, sent by God, there is no debate about anything he said or did. I have accepted him as a prophet and therefore, have absolutely no hesitation in accepting anything he said, that's if he actually said it.

It is sad that we have threads like this attacking his character. Most the information on the internet in general and on the media, is attacking Islam but God's promise is that His religion will supercede all religions, and that truth will prevail over falsehood. I hope that half the people in this thread take the time to read about the actual life of Muhammed pbuh and also his hadith, he described this age we live in so accurately.

If you are completely unconvinced, all I can say is study Islam from the source (ie. Quran and hadith) not by looking at muslims, and don't pick out one verse here and there when the meaning is in the entire chapter. Read books by islamic scholars who have dedicated their lives to understanding Islam. The prophet Muhammed pbuh also has many hadith speaking of signs to come and things to watch out for, many of which have happened and are happening, we need to take heed.

I leave you with the last sermon ever delivered by our beloved prophet may peace and blessings be upon him:

Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon -
Date delivered: 632 A.C., 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat.

After praising, and thanking God, he said: "O People, listen well to my words, for I do not know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (riba), therefore all riba obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital , however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer inequity. God has judged that there shall be no riba and that all the riba due to `Abbas ibn `Abd al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived.

Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabi`ah ibn al Harith ibn `Abd al Muttalib.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God (The One Creator of the Universe), perform your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your financial obligation (zakah) of your wealth. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God (The Creator) and you will answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, No prophet or messenger will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH, if you follow them you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people. "

 

[bhavv]

Nothing that you have written there proves to me that any prophet was sent by God.

 

[SlugForAButt]

By the way, I cant read or understand arabic, .

Which BTW most Muslims can't either. Most Muslims recite the noises without understanding most of what they are saying. The Imam leads them in chanting what they don't really understand, he also gives them "his" interpretation of the Q'uran without them being able to really challenge because the can't read it. They basically get told what a set of symbols is supposed tomean without being able to read it.
I was never aware of this until I was chatting with one of our Pakistani warehouse guys one day, turns out that this is very common.

 

[SlugForAButt]

There may well have been many 'crazy' people along the way however, God always sent his messengers with signs and proofs. It all comes down too... was Muhammed pbuh a prophet, or wasnt he? The argument and debate has never been about anything else really because if he truly was a prophet, sent by God, there is no debate about anything he said or did. I have accepted him as a prophet and therefore, have absolutely no hesitation in accepting anything he said, that's if he actually said it.

It is sad that we have threads like this attacking his character. Most the information on the internet in general and on the media, is attacking Islam but God's promise is that His religion will supercede all religions, and that truth will prevail over falsehood. I hope that half the people in this thread take the time to read about the actual life of Muhammed pbuh and also his hadith, he described this age we live in so accurately.

If you are completely unconvinced, all I can say is study Islam from the source (ie. Quran and hadith) not by looking at muslims, and don't pick out one verse here and there when the meaning is in the entire chapter. Read books by islamic scholars who have dedicated their lives to understanding Islam. The prophet Muhammed pbuh also has many hadith speaking of signs to come and things to watch out for, many of which have happened and are happening, we need to take heed.

I leave you with the last sermon ever delivered by our beloved prophet may peace and blessings be upon him:

Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon -
Date delivered: 632 A.C., 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat.

After praising, and thanking God, he said: "O People, listen well to my words, for I do not know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (riba), therefore all riba obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital , however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer inequity. God has judged that there shall be no riba and that all the riba due to `Abbas ibn `Abd al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived.

Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabi`ah ibn al Harith ibn `Abd al Muttalib.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God (The One Creator of the Universe), perform your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your financial obligation (zakah) of your wealth. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God (The Creator) and you will answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, No prophet or messenger will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH, if you follow them you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people. "

Once again, your proof is a storybook?
What makes it any more proofworthy than a Noddy book?

 

[Camoe]

no one knows what he looks like.

 

[e36Adz]

Nothing that you have written there proves to me that any prophet was sent by God.

I am not trying to prove anything to you. All I am saying is, take the time to read and get the full picture, rather then certain small parts which support or favour the impression you already seem to have.

If you still arrive at the same conclusion in your own heart, then fair enough, you will only have to account for yourself no one else. And according to Islam which you criticise so heavily, no one will not be dealt with unjustly in any way.

 

[Gaidin109]

No, just about every human is destined to hell because of 'RELIGIOUS' beliefs, according to those 'RELIGIONS'.

You eat pork? HELL.

You drink alcohol? HELL.

You have sex before marriage? HELL.

You ever deny the word of God? HELL.

You dont believe in God? HELL.

You do believe in God, but only according to your religion? HELL. (according to every other religion).

Actually, everysingle human is going to hell according to religious belief.

You seem to already be there. Islam is actually very clear that only those who have recieved teaching in Islam and rejected it are destined to Hell. Non-Muslims are not mentioned at all in relation to Hell.