May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’
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Soldato
"Allah is with those who restrain themselves." [16: 128]
"And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say 'Peace'" [25:63]
just been reading some of the quotes
Im confused as to why this thread has been allowed to stay open since its turned into imature muslim bashing, surely if your an atheist you should b able to accept that you think the views of religious people seem plain stupid to you and just accept it like i do. Theres no need to start trolling them on a public forum because you are not going to change their min buy acting like an idiot.
this speech was dedicated to SlugForAButt
this speech was dedicated to SlugForAButt
Soldato
Guys I am a muslim and you are getting confused about islamic issues. If you want to study islam you have to study it with a broadmind, patience and not be biased. I will try my best to clear few issues especially with regards to heaven and hell.
In islam first of all no one is guaranteed heaven and nor does every one go in hellfire either. Prophet Muhammed himself has said in one of his sayings (hadith) that 'I am a prophet of Allah(God) but even I don't know what my end will be' or something to this effect. I can't remember the hadith number but it is there. So this shows even the founder of islam is not guaranteed paradise let alone average muslim. It is very interesting to note that this issue differs so much from christianity where if you believe in jesus and take him as your saviour you are instantly saved but this is not so in islam.
From islamic perspective life is a test from God (Allah) and also a means to discover Him. God has stated in islam that this life is a very short one and everyone will be brought back to Him. He already knows the past, present and future as all of this is his creation. The time is also his creation. Yet He is unlike any of his creation and beyond time.
He has also stated in Quran that it is HE who created good and evil so that he may test us through different circumstances. Also sometimes people say that earthquakes struck poor people; if God was so loving and caring why did He let it happen. Well in islam God has already appointed a period of time in which certain events will occur and in which He has also given humans free will to exercise with in those events which can never be delayed nor postponed based on his perfect knowledge which we can't have access to.
In Quran God states that when time of death comes it can never be delayed or postponed. Also He says in Quran that He will not be questioned as to what He does but they will be (the people).
You have to realize from islamic perspective God does what He wills. It is not a question of ascribing good or evil to God. In islam God is One in Absolute form without any partner just like Judaism. In islam God is mentioned through His attributes like loving, compassionate, just , powerfull, omnipotent, all knowing etc. These are His attributes by which we describe Him.
But on a truly divine level it is His 'Divine Essence' which remains the greatest mystery, i.e His Self which is the True meaning of God. Countless mystics of islam who were greatest during their time have tried to know the exact understanding of God but have only got reflection of God's atrtributes. Among some islamic scholars it is known that to try to understand God's Divine Essence would only lead to confusion, stray from islamic path and could lead to doom. Thats why no one dares question Divine Essence.
Coming back to the question of heaven and hell. In islam there is a judgement day where every one will be judged individually with no links to family, friens, relatives. So whether you are muslim, christian, atheist etc; each one will have a case with God and then only God decides who is going where. For instance a very pious muslim can still be thrown in hell whereas a non practising muslim can go to heaven. Also there is a reward in the grave aswell as there is punishment in grave.
Also about people being muslims, christians, jews, hindus, buddhists etc; God has stated in Quran that 'if He had willed He would have created you as one nation but there will always be differences among them' or something like this. Just reiterating earlier Quranic quote that 'He will not be asked as to what He does but they will be'. So it remains mystery why people were created in nations, tribes, religions etc. I guess you have to ask God directly about that.
Guys I just touched on some basics of Islam. Obviously to study islam to the greatest depth would require immense time, dedication and lots of books
. But I will say this; if you want an appreciation of islam read the Quran along with sayings of :-Prophet Muhammed
-Ali ibn Talib (Cousin of Prophet muhammed and 2nd most important islamic figure after Prophet Muhammed)
-Abdul Qadir Jilani (One of the greatest islamic mystics of all time)
Ali ibn Talib is especially known for his wise sayings about life and other issues.
I hope I have clarified few issues and hope you can also appreciate Islam better
But I don't suggest that my beliefs are the results of a compassionate loving God. So compassionate in fact that he decided that I deserve hell for the crime of not believing in him. It is pretty much this area that strikes to the heart of my disbelief in the abrahamic god. When the inherent unfairness of the system arises the only answers are "Er, dunno, god moves in mysterious ways." Also I find it difficult to respect a God that has decided to burn in hell for eternity a large portion of his creations.
But at least it is fair. The endpoint is exactly the same regardless of where or when you are born.
Technically Judaism isn't the same as Judaism is only concerned with the God of the Jewish people. It has nothing at all to say about Gods of the non jewish people (other than Jews shouldn't worship them). There are also quite a few religions were belief is unimportant to your end state.
It depends on how you define "teaching" though doesn't it? I am aware of Islam, of the concept of Mohammed and Allah and of some of it's teachings and have gone "Ah, no. No real proof of truth and looks very much like a man-made control tool." So technically I have rejected God and am hell bound.
Specifics aside, I think we can surely agree everyone has a different throw of the dice as to how likely it is they will believe in God, or commit a series sin.
If you consider some cultures, in some times, believing in a God was far far more likely than in other cultures say today. Take a hundred people at random from these different cultures/times, and one will result in far more 'believers' than the other because the odds are in their favour. Seems unfair surely... Why don't we all get those same odds.
We also have the problem of seemingly golden tickets? Child deaths or the mentally ill for example? More religious individuals seem to suggest these folk go straight to Heaven. So they're all dealt a royal flush straight away...
Afraid not, if I adopt the 'religious tactics.' Now you come to mention it, I forgot to say before that the Gorilla is invisible, and doesn't move the child noticably while using his magical rack...
God use to be responsible for so very much - all life, all weather, all the stars and objects in the heavens, etc etc..., but his job description over the years seems to have been reduced as science (to coin Carl Sagan's phrase) has proved to be a candle in the dark.
Religion just adjusts its story to match the current evidence, always just enough to hide God away so it can't be found. Surprisingly in just the same way as I have (& will continue to do) with my magical gorilla.
You're absolutely right! So we'd better believe in my Gorilla too
EDIT: BTW, I see your outlook as a considered and intelligent one. You can see both sides of the coin, and most importantly the inherent problems and flaws with some/many religious views and adjust your beliefs/views accordingly.
My issue is with individuals who become 'religious' accepting it as the 'absolute truth' ignoring all logic and common sense that might suggest otherwise. And when you get into the ridiculous realms that some super being would be the slightest way inclined to give you a bucket of virgins when you die? Sheesh!
Worse still, to then criticise/question people who have stepped outside the envelope and not just 'accepted things'...
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Fair Enough. Although on deeper investigation of these faiths, it is not always as black and white as that. As someone mentioned earlier only Christianity really states Jesus is the way to Heaven and everyone else will burn in Hell, all the others are somewhat vague on what constitutes being Hell-borne.
But at least it is fair. The endpoint is exactly the same regardless of where or when you are born.
And is somewhat depressing for all that.
That is not quite true, although Judaism doesn't proselytise, the original 7 commandments given to Noah, include not to commit Idolatry, now Judaism say that all 7 commandments are binding on ALL people regardless of faith or belief because all people are descended from Noah and his family, so faiths such as Hinduism, Buddism and to some more orthodox Jewish Schools of Thought, Christianity do not have a place in the "World to Come".
Only the 613 mitzvot are applied to Jews only.
It depends on how you define "teaching" though doesn't it? I am aware of Islam, of the concept of Mohammed and Allah and of some of it's teachings and have gone "Ah, no. No real proof of truth and looks very much like a man-made control tool." So technically I have rejected God and am hell bound.
Again that is open to interpretation, Tariq, my colleague here says that you have to have recieved formal instruction from an Imam for it to be relevent. He also says that only Muslims are held to account by Allah as Muslims, each other Child of the Book (Jew or Christian) is judged by Allah according to their faith. I must admit I was suprised by that myself, but Tariq is a practising Muslim so I'll take his word for it. He also says that non-believers are judged by what is in their Heart at the time of judgement regardless, only those who turned away from Allah after professing their Faith are damned.
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I see what you mean, but to those who do not believe it is meaningless, as I said about most Religions are pretty vague as to what happens to non-believers, the Muslims on here and my Colleague here in my office can't seem to agree either. This is part of the reason I am agnostic. A policy of wait and see, although given my previous occupation I have broken at least one of the commandments of all the faiths, so has Tariq actually. I'll have to ask him about that.
Again this all depend entirely on an anthropomorphic God, something I am convinced is a man-made construct to explain something that our limited understanding cannot comprehend fully. That is not to say there is not a God, just that it's nature is as yet unknown.
You're absolutely right! So we'd better believe in my Gorilla too
EDIT: BTW, I see your outlook as a considered and intelligent one. You can see both sides of the coin, and most importantly the inherent problems and flaws with some/many religious views and adjust your beliefs/views accordingly.
My issue is with individuals who become 'religious' accepting it as the 'absolute truth' ignoring all logic and common sense that might suggest otherwise. And when you get into the ridiculous realms that some super being would be the slightest way inclined to give you a bucket of virgins when you die? Sheesh!
Worse still, to then criticise/question people who have stepped outside the envelope and not just 'accepted things'...
As much as I want a bucketload of Virgins to greet me into the afterlife (my wife might have something to say about that, even then.) I only have issue with those that Proselytise their beliefs without concern and consideration for other points of view, this includes both Believers and Non-Believers. Some years ago I had a huge argument at the Oxford Union with Richard Dawkins on this very subject, needless to say it ended as stalemate as this one will also, although we still enjoy a coffee together on occasion and that is all you can really do, accept that not all people think, beleive or behave as you would wish them to.
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Soldato
True. Hence I also mentioned in my post that in Islam every one is judged differently and individually based on individual circumstances. It is not a black and white scenario in Islam. From islamic perspective there is a literal meaning to Quran aswell as a deep symbolic spiritual meaning which can only be understood by those who have deep understanding of Islamic faith. Majority of the people whether muslims or non muslims read Quran in a literal sense and base their judgement on what they read literally which can also be termed as 'surface reading'.
True. Hence I also mentioned in my post that in Islam every one is judged differently and individually based on individual circumstances. It is not a black and white scenario in Islam. From islamic perspective there is a literal meaning to Quran aswell as a deep symbolic spiritual meaning which can only be understood by those who have deep understanding of Islamic faith. Majority of the people whether muslims or non muslims read Quran in a literal sense and base their judgement on what they read literally which can also be termed as 'surface reading'.
But I thought Islam was quite specific about believing in God? If you don't, then hell it is?
Associate
Just seen this on The Register.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/17/zuckerberg_faces_criminal_investigation_in_pakistan/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/17/zuckerberg_faces_criminal_investigation_in_pakistan/
I think they may have a problem with that as those Laws are Ahmadi Specific and cannot be applied to non-muslims. AFAIK.
http://www.thepersecution.org/50years/paklaw.html
Then again on further investigation maybe not....
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Soldato
Well it may well be that a person was born in an atheist family and chose to lead such life and didn't ponder in deep about life, his origin, his death, about God. It may be the case that a person became atheist after believing in God and the test would be to see whether he returns to believing in God or not. It may well be the case that he continued to be an atheist and ended up in hell or that his case is with God.
It may be the case that person after being an atheist believed in God and his reward would be greater than those who were born in God believing family as he placed way more effort in seeking the knowledge to understand more about his life.
One thing we can all agree is that we all have to go in the grave and then things may be made much clearer to us all.
Similarly me being a muslim; if I don't believe in the christian version of Jesus then I am going to hell according to christian folks. But again the whole debate about religion gets very subjective. The best thing is to live and let live. If a person is interested in a religion then he/she can do their own research and ask questions to respectable scholars in their field. But labelling each other as 'hell bound' is wrong and create a lot of enmities
A greater reward? So now the test isn't just to pass and to get into heaven, but you're marked and graded and put into different levels of heaven?
Oh please... It just sounds dafter and dafter...
I'm so tempted to register the domain, "DrawMohammedCentury.com"...
Caporegime
Sadly life isnt that black and white especially on here lol....your always going to get the religious people saying they are right and the non religious lot saying oh noessss your all stupid and crazy etc etc...its just one big circle that religious debates/arguements go around in.
I find a lot of the comments in here pretty hilarious mainly those by bhavv and slugforabutt...mind you difference between slug and bhavv is that bhavv isnt being childish about the things he says whereas slug is acting like an immature child with the insulting terms he comes out with.
Like ive said before live and let live...it would make for a much easier life.
A greater reward? So now the test isn't just to pass and to get into heaven, but you're marked and graded and put into different levels of heaven?
Oh please... It just sounds dafter and dafter...
the more good deeds you do in this life the more rewards you get in heaven
Caporegime
A greater reward? So now the test isn't just to pass and to get into heaven, but you're marked and graded and put into different levels of heaven?
Oh please... It just sounds dafter and dafter...
To you it sounds daft but to the millions of muslims out there...it isnt daft.
Its like splitting hairs trying to explain our beliefs to someone who isnt religious in any way, shape or form. But what makes me wonder is that you Neil seem hard done by...why should it bother you what islam says?? i mean when it comes to heaven and hell etc etc. Your not religious nor do you believe in God from what i have gathered...so if thats the case then why does it bother you to such an extent that you have to keep asking the same question over and over again.
If i wasnt muslim or religious then i dont personally think it would bother me what another religion has to say on heaven/hell and the afterlife etc. Fact is i dont really care what other religions have to say about heaven/hell and the afterlife...i only care about what my religion says.
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