May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[RDM]

And is somewhat depressing for all that.

I am going to have to disagree. The fact that we only get one chance of life makes it all the more precious and all the more important to make it as good as possible for yourself and those you care about. Rather than worrying about heaven in the next life you do your best to make the current life as good as possible.

 

[Gaidin109]

I am going to have to disagree. The fact that we only get one chance of life makes it all the more precious and all the more important to make it as good as possible for yourself and those you care about. Rather than worrying about heaven in the next life you do your best to make the current life as good as possible.

Ah..the carefree attitude of the Young. Unfortunately not all have the same opportunity to live such a life, which is why religion is probably on the rise in Countries where the living conditions and prospects of living any kind of life free from struggle are low.

We have the benefit of a high standard of living to make such a declaration. I wonder if you would feel differently if you had a terminal illness or when you are nearing the end of this life.

 

[e36Adz]

A greater reward? So now the test isn't just to pass and to get into heaven, but you're marked and graded and put into different levels of heaven?

Oh please... It just sounds dafter and dafter...

Each person is different. Some people are tested in different more difficult ways than others. In Islam we believe that God never puts a burden on a soul, greater than it can bear.

So, you have billions of people all of whom are born in different circumstances, different continents, different centuries. Only God, in His infinite wisdom can distinguish and judge between His creation, because He gave us life and He will give us death. Not an atom is hidden from Him in the heavens or on earth, except God has said He will bring it forth on the day of judgement. You are trying to understand a test which God has created, without having all the information. And even if you did, do you think a human mind is capable of understanding God, we cannot even understand all of Gods creation, we are in awe of it.

According to Islam, all these things which you have in your mind, which you keep repeating... make it impossible for you to believe in God, will be brought out into the open one day.

"The day will surely come when each soul will be confronted with whatever good or evil it has done. As for its evil deeds, it will wish they were a long way off. "(3:30)

"On that day mankind will come out in broken bands to be shown their deeds. Whoever has done an atoms weight of good shall see it, and whoever has done an atoms weight of evil shall see it too. "(99:6-8)

They will say, "Alas for us! Who has raised us from our resting-place? This is what the All-Merciful promised us. The Messengers were telling the truth." (36: 52)

And the True Promise is very close, the eyes of those who were disbelievers will be transfixed: "Alas for us! We were unmindful of this! No, rather we were definitely wrongdoers." (21: 97)

On the Day the sky is like molten brass and the mountains like tufts of coloured wool. No good friend will ask about his friend even though they can see each other. An evildoer will wish he could ransom himself from the punishment of that Day, by means of his sons, or his wife or his brother or his family who sheltered him or everyone else on earth, if that only meant that he could save himself. (Surat al-Ma'arij: 8-14)

...they will be paraded before your Lord in ranks: "You have come to Us just as We created you at first. Yes indeed! Even though you claimed that We would not fix a time with you." The Book will be set in place and you will see the evildoers fearful of what is in it. They will say, "Alas for us! What is this Book which does not pass over any action, small or great, without recording it?" They will find there everything they did and your Lord will not wrong anyone at all. (Surat al-Kahf: 48-49)

We will set up the Just Balance on the Day of Rising and no self will be wronged in any way. Even if it is no more than the weight of a grain of mustard-seed, We will produce it. We are sufficient as a Reckoner. (Surat al-Anbiya': 47)

 

[RDM]

Ah..the carefree attitude of the Young.

No, the considered attitude of the middle aged...

Unfortunately not all have the same opportunity to live such a life, which is why religion is probably on the rise in Countries where the living conditions and prospects of living any kind of life free from struggle.

Which possibly lends itself more to the view that religion is false and is just a man made tool to help cope.

We have the benefit of a high standard of living to make such a declaration. I wonder if you would feel differently if you had a terminal illness or when you are nearing the end of this life.

I would probably be more reflective on what I have done, but I am already filling up the box of "good moments" to try and counteract the "bad moments" (hence a change of career into something less about money and more about actions). Hard to say exactly how I will feel but I doubt I will be wishing for an afterlife as I try as hard as I can to be honest to myself if no one else. Intellectually I just cannot believe in a god without concrete proof, I see little that will change my psyche so fundamentally.

 

[NeilF]

But what makes me wonder is that you Neil seem hard done by...

Why do you keep saying this? Huh!



However, my points thusfar (which you keep ignoring of course) have been as follows:-

Chance of believing
Clearly where you are born, or when you are born, has a statistical impact on your likelyhood to believe. Look at the percentage of believers per country and you'll see the figure vary a lot!

Now add to this, that according to time, this percentage will change too.

The meaning is - as you keep having problems understanding it - that where and when you are born has a statistical bearing on your likelyhood to end up believing in God.

Yes, everyone has a chance in believing or not, but some have more of a chance. No denying it

Chance of sinning
The same suggestion can be made on one likelihood to sin. Some people born had a nigh on 100% chance of terrible sinning in the worse case. Bit unlucky to be born into shoes that undoubtably will mean you are a murderer through no real choice.

Don't even have to take the test
Some people don't even have to pass the test, instead jumping to the front of the queue straight into heaven. Children who die young? Mentally ill?

What does it all mean?
Clearly the traditional view of religion, where life is a test, seems to have a serious problem. The test just isn't fair when viewed through traditional religious standards.

Born in the wrong country? You have less of a chance of believing, so less of a chance of going to heaven.

Die at 3yrs old? No worries... Go straight to heaven.

And now it seem, not only is this lop-sided test used to see who qualifies for heaven, but also what seat you get there too!

I'm sorry, it's sounding more contrived and ridiculous by the second...

 

[Gaidin109]

No, the considered attitude of the middle aged...

Young in experience maybe?

Which possibly lends itself more to the view that religion is false and is just a man made tool to help cope.

Of course it is. That doesn't automatically preclude a God however.

I would probably be more reflective on what I have done, but I am already filling up the box of "good moments" to try and counteract the "bad moments" (hence a change of career into something less about money and more about actions). Hard to say exactly how I will feel but I doubt I will be wishing for an afterlife as I try as hard as I can to be honest to myself if no one else. Intellectually I just cannot believe in a god without concrete proof, I see little that will change my psyche so fundamentally.

Hedging your bets....maybe?

I often wondered about how anyone can believe in what appears to be an obvious superstition, yet seeing the hope and comfort this superstition gave to people who have lost everything in the DRC, how it allowed them to continue to survive when I would probably have given up, I understand the value of their Faith to them. I respect that.

 

[NeilF]

Each person is different. Some people are tested in different more difficult ways than others. In Islam we believe that God never puts a burden on a soul, greater than it can bear.

So, you have billions of people all of whom are born in different circumstances, different continents, different centuries. Only God, in His infinite wisdom can distinguish and judge between His creation, because He gave us life and He will give us death.

So let me understand your perception.

God decides when/where you are born. He then controls the events that befall you in life...

So where is your free will then? God gives you your initial mind set you're born with, and then controls all the events that befall you in your life that further taylor your values and thoughts?

For example, God gave me my mindset at birth, and has walked me through the events in my life that has led me to the conclusion he cannot/does not exist.

Yet with others, maybe like yourself, he's given you a different mindset at birth, and given you different life events, which has made you believe...

What's the purpose of such a test?

 

[RDM]

Young in experience maybe?

No, just different experiences.

Of course it is. That doesn't automatically preclude a God however.

I never said it did. But the more I have studied religion, the more I have looked at the history of religion, the harder I find it to actually believe any of it. As far as the Abrahamic god goes, if it is all true then, in my hubris, I do not think he is worthy of worship and I guess I will burn in eternity for that.

Hedging your bets....maybe?

Not really. I do not believe in God, no hedging going on at all.

I often wondered about how anyone can believe in what appears to be an obvious superstition, yet seeing the hope and comfort this superstition gave to people who have lost everything in the DRC, how it allowed them to continue to survive when I would probably have given up, I understand the value of their Faith to them. I respect that.

But how do you know it was their faith that allowed them to survive and not just the human desire to live? It isn't like we have an agnostic or atheist control group to put through the same horrific process. I find it odd that you will quite happily lay the blame for all the ill that man does at the foot of man yet are happy to assume that the good is due to religion.

 

[Gaidin109]

But how do you know it was their faith that allowed them to survive and not just the human desire to live? It isn't like we have an agnostic or atheist control group to put through the same horrific process. I find it odd that you will quite happily lay the blame for all the ill that man does at the foot of man yet are happy to assume that the good is due to religion.

I know because it is what they believe. Religion may well be a manifestation of that Will, but they believe nonetheless, who are we to tell them they are mistaken. It is somewhat disingenuous to say that I attribute all the Good to religion, I don't believe in any religion so I don't attribute it any such thing.Some Peoples faith is what sustains them, I respect that. That doen't mean that All good is because of religious belief. It simply means that their faith is a good thing if it sustains them.

 

[WingZero30]

the more good deeds you do in this life the more rewards you get in heaven

Thanks Shakeel for pointing that out.

 

[NeilF]

Thanks Shakeel for pointing that out.

Sort of like Tesco Club Card points... Build them up during life and then buy something nice in Heaven... Like extra virgins... or extra baby oil or whipped cream?

 

[RDM]

I know because it is what they believe.

As I said, without an unbelieving control group it is hard to say either way.

Religion may well be a manifestation of that Will, but they believe nonetheless, who are we to tell them they are mistaken. It is somewhat disingenuous to say that I attribute all the Good to religion, I don't believe in any religion so I don't attribute it any such thing.Some Peoples faith is what sustains them, I respect that. That doen't mean that All good is because of religious belief. It simply means that their faith is a good thing if it sustains them.

But it would equally mean that their faith is a bad thing if it leads them to do bad things.

 

[Gaidin109]

As I said, without an unbelieving control group it is hard to say either way.

Like most discussions on religion it is highly subjective.

But it would equally mean that their faith is a bad thing if it leads them to do bad things.

Not neccessarily, you could argue that Religion is ambivalent, and only Mans interpretation is either Good or Evil in it's intent. In which case Man is ultimately responsible either way. Which according to most Holy books is the reason we have Freewill.

I have often wondered how the Tower of Babel story fits in with Islamic and Catholic Faith and their proslytising.

 

[Yas786]

Why do you keep saying this? Huh!



However, my points thusfar (which you keep ignoring of course) have been as follows:-

Chance of believing
Clearly where you are born, or when you are born, has a statistical impact on your likelyhood to believe. Look at the percentage of believers per country and you'll see the figure vary a lot!

Now add to this, that according to time, this percentage will change too.

Maybe but until you show me proof of these so called statistics then i wont entertain that point.

The meaning is - as you keep having problems understanding it - that where and when you are born has a statistical bearing on your likelyhood to end up believing in God.

Yes, everyone has a chance in believing or not, but some have more of a chance. No denying it

In your opinion of course...i believe everyone has the choice of believing but some actively decide not to such as yourself. Of course if your born into a religious family then yes the likelyhood is that you have a far better chance of believing in God compared to a non religious family. My fiancee is a good example of this...her whole family are atheists..she was atheist up until 5 yrs ago...well to be exact she was more agnostic than atheist but she did her research on the various religions and believed that Islam made the most sense out of all them...again purely down to her own free will and choice.

Chance of sinning
The same suggestion can be made on one likelihood to sin. Some people born had a nigh on 100% chance of terrible sinning in the worse case. Bit unlucky to be born into shoes that undoubtably will mean you are a murderer through no real choice.

Hmmm interesting but the thing with islam is that we see God as merciful and forgiving so yes you might sin a lot but theres every chance that if you change for the better ie become a better person then you could very well be forgiven for past sins....depending on what sins they were ie some sins will never be forgiven but on the day of judgement...both good deeds and bad deeds are placed on a scale and if the good deeds outweigh the bad deeds then you win and vice versa.

Don't even have to take the test
Some people don't even have to pass the test, instead jumping to the front of the queue straight into heaven. Children who die young? Mentally ill?

Explain to me how can a child who is not of sound and developed mind can commit sins??...until they develop their own mind they cant be held accountable for their actions...this is what Islam says on that matter. The same with people who were born mentally ill and i dont mean ADHD or other behavioural afflictions. They arent of sound mind so cannot be judged.


Fine the test isnt fair but thats the way it is for us muslims...now tell me Neil how are you going to go about changing that test for yourself??...so that you no longer have this tired old arguement that the test is unfair because of your so called circumstances...ill add this your an adult so theres absolutely nothing stopping you from seeking further knowledge and believing in God...but you as a person actively made the choice not to believe in a God so i dont quite understand why you keep harping on about this test being so unfair. You have been shown in this thread that muslims believe it to be one way whereas other religions may see it another way.

As i asked before if its so unfair to you then why not change it so that it becomes more fair for you?? or is that not possible for you??.

Because sitting right next to me is fiancee and she does see your point...but she pretty much says the same thing as me...its down to you and only you to make that test fair for yourself....everyone has the equal opportunity to make that test for themselves...its whether they choose to or not to.

 

[Shakeel]

Thanks Shakeel for pointing that out.

no worries btw salam

 

[e36Adz]

Fine the test isnt fair but.....

The test is fair and Neil knows that. He can pick holes in 'our' arguments all day, because the mistakes and errors lie with us (muslims), not with God.

The One who was responsible for creating the stars, galaxies, solar systems etc and from whom nothing is hidden, is far above anything we can imagine.

The very first part of the muslim shahadah (declaration of faith) is 'There is no god/deity...' because before we can accept the One true God, we have to reject all other models of any god. Atheists are also agreeing with this first part of the shahadah, in which they are rejecting all models of god that are being put forward, therefore they are half way there already. The shahadah continues...'There is no god/deity but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God'.

So if you have people using logic, reasoning, science and they are rejecting models of god, which state that god was a human being who came to earth, muslims agree with you. However, the One true God who can only even remotely be understood by His attributes, is the God which Islam accepts.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Say: He is God, the One!
God, the Eternal, the Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none comparable to Him.

112:1-4

If your God fits this description, you believe in the same God as muslims, regardless of what language you speak or what name you give to God.

 

[Usher]

Quran...we are taught the language and to read the Quran from a very early age....i started at the age of 5 and have read the Quran enough times to know it pretty well.

.

I seem to recall a post from you way back where you more or less denied that you were lead into Islam by your parents & it was your own free choice & yet here you are saying that you were reading the Quran at aged 5 ??

 

[Shakeel]

I seem to recall a post from you way back where you more or less denied that you were lead into Islam by your parents & it was your own free choice & yet here you are saying that you were reading the Quran at aged 5 ??

we are given an islamic upbringing but at the end of the day its up to us if we follow islam.

 

[Usher]

we are given an islamic upbringing but at the end of the day its up to us if we follow islam.

exactly, but we've already pointed out many pages back that your given an Islamic upbringing right from the start, long before your old enough to make decisions for yourself & then it's too late - how many of you decline to continue without major retributions from family etc?
I'm not singling muslims out by any means, this is religion in general - get em while they're young

 

[TipTop]

how many of you decline to continue without major retributions from family etc?

This poster is on the side of buses in America.