May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[bhavv]

It's not a court it's an arbitrator.

It is still an extension of political Islam, that is Islamic Law slowly trying to creep into other countries and grow in power.

Islamic Judges can also be very prejudiced and backward thinkers, and may hold and pass on biased views in favor of the religion over the right of the human being, because under the sharia law that would be accepted.

Also, for the Muslims living in Britain, women and children can be forced into attending a sharia court for any of the grievances they currently handle against their will, just because the husband / father commands it to happen.

Now I would like to know, is there really any need for Sharia Courts in the first place? What is wrong with Muslims using normal British courts instead?

The same applies to courts of any other religion, they should all be scrapped and every single person provided with the same, equal, and fair for all law.

there are countless cases of women being forced to do things such as arranged marriages. What protection do they have under shariah?

Yes, this as well. Lots of women are still, in the UK, forced into arranged marriages in both Islam and Hinduism. Two of my female cousins were beaten bloody by their fathers after they refused wanting to have an arranged marriage to some complete ***** of seriously old fashioned womanising blokes that just wanted wifes to stay at home, clean the house, cook the dinner, and raise the kids.

Surprisingly, my brother wants a wife for exactly the same thing. Even less surprisingly, he isnt successfully managing to find one anymore, and I will speak out against any arranged marriage and urge and woman that might be arranged to marry him not to do so, at the risk of being beaten bloody myself.

I am completely anti - arranged marriage. Among the muslim and hindu populations such as in places like Bradford, they are seriously bad things for the women, who end up giving up their lives into oppression.

 

[Tefal]

there are countless cases of women being forced to do things such as arranged marriages. What protection do they have under shariah?

They don't need protection under shariah they are protected under uk law.

 

[Yas786]

there's some very blinkered posters on here still claiming women get equal rights in islam,lol
why aren't they even allowed to pray in a mosque alongside men unless separated by a wall or in a different room?

I just read one bit where if a woman prays alongside men
quote:
she invalidates the prayer of three men: one to her right, another to her left and a third behind her, which may be summed up by saying that if the woman is desirable, has reached the age of seven years or is of marriageable age etc. etc. end Quote:

does that mean that all the men can't be trusted to not all indulge in a mass rape or what


Seems Moslem Women in the west, safer from imminent death are not happy either, lots of groups demanding prayer alongside men

Quote:
By Sarrah AbuLughod, March 8, 2010
“No, sister, you can’t go in that way! There’s a back door around the corner.” I can’t tell you how many times those words were said to me over the years as I tried to enter through the front door of many a mosque around the United States. There seems to be this unwritten, yet nationally recognized and practiced, tradition of leaving the worst space for the separate women’s prayer hall. From collecting funds to replace the soiled carpet and repaint the chipped walls, to silently walking in the front entrance and ignoring the disapproving glares as they make their way to the balcony rather than submit to the back prayer room turned childcare, through the years I’ve seen women protest against this dismissive treatment in a variety of ways.
The most ardent protests seem to have created quite the backlash. In the midst of Black History month and with the Greensboro Four sit-in heavy on people’s hearts and minds, Fatima Thompson and a few others decided to organize and participate in a “pray-in” last week at the Islamic Center of Washington in D.C. Police were summoned and threatened to arrest the women when they refused to leave the main prayer hall and continued their protest against being corralled in what they referred to as the “penalty box” of a prayer space reserved for women.
end Quote :

Hard to believe really, even in the USA

See again you do it time and time again...when will you learn that taking the sensationalist approach doesnt do you any favours??

Are women allowed to pray in mosques??...yes they are...obviously there is segregation within the mosque ie women pray in a different area to men. Now you might be sat there asking ok wheres the proof??..my proof is growing up in Canada where we had a massive mosque and i saw a lot and i mean a lot of women who prayed at the same mosque as men...not at different times but at the same time....in fact there were 2 levels and on the upper level is where the women prayed so that men could not see them.

Saying that i do find it very strange that in my mosque women arent allowed to pray but then my mosque is very small so with the amount of muslim men that go in there its hard nigh on impossible to fit any women in there. I dont agree with it and as a result i have contributed a lot of my own personal wealth ie savings towards a bigger mosque which im hoping will be finished by end of this year and then we will welcome any muslim women with open arms.

If you want further proof of this then here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XecPY9sydg

A video of a well renowned islamic scholar who says that women are allowed to pray in a mosque...also quotes from the Quran to back up his points.

Heres another one to mull over: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlyq-PjNJlk&feature=related

And the final one:

There are too many people in our community who make there own rules. They do what they think that is right thing without any authorization. Women are marginalized, taking out of Islamic activities. You know Islam gave equal rights to men and women so how we stop them from doing any Islamic activity. This is totally against Islamic laws. How can women learn things if they don’t go to mosque because mosque is like a school for any Muslim.

If you don’t know what women did for Islam then read this below.

•First person who accepted Islam was a woman = Hazrat Khadija (Radi allah unha)
•First person who died (shaheed) for Islam was a woman = Hazrat Summiya (Radi allah unha)
•Second most hadith reported by any person was a woman = Hazrat Ayesha (Radi allah unha)
And you can go on and on and see what women did for Islam in earlier days and still they are doing a leading role in various parts of the world.

back to topic! Actually there is not a single verse of holy Quran or hadith which prohibit women from praying in mosque. Infect there are several hadith which speaks the opposite. You know in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) mosque (Masjid-e-Nabawi), when prophet was in mosque, women were also in that mosque. They kindly listen what He said and implemented on them and Prophet (PBUH) never prevent them from entering the mosque. That is the authentic mosque overview.

In Sahih Bukhari Vol.1: Hadith # 832: Ch # 84, it says : When your wife ask to go to the mosque, do not prohibit them.

In Sahih Bukhari Vol.1: hadith # 824: Ch # 80, it says : When the women ask you to go to the mosque at night allow them. (you can see even in night women can go to the mosque).

In Sahih Muslim Vol.1: hadith # 881: Ch # 175, it says : The best row for men is first row and worst is the last, and best row for women is the last row and worst is the first. (indicating that men and women can pray in the mosque). There are several other hadith.

In Sahih Muslim Vol.1: hadith # 884: Ch # 177, it says : Do not prevent servant of Allah to go to the mosque.

In Sahih Muslim Vol.1: hadith # 891: Ch # 177, it says : Do not take away the shade of mosque of the women.

With added Hadiths from the Quran in case you start going on about proof from the Quran.

I hope that answers your question....as for muslim men stopping women from praying in a mosque...well thats totally utterly against the teachings of islam as a whole...in Gods eyes that is a big sin...who are we to deny a muslim the right to pray whether it be a man or female.

 

[Tefal]

Also, for the Muslims living in Britain, women and children can be forced into attending a sharia court for any of the grievances they currently handle against their will, just because the husband / father commands it to happen.

If they're going to be forced illegally into arbitrations (and for whatever reason they don't just ring the police) then why not just force them to pay the money anyway?

That's pretty much all these places can do, so why the need to force it into a court if you're already forcing them?


Seems pretty pointless to force them into a non legally binding arbitration (not legal if you're forced into it) when you could just force them to do what you want anyway, don't you think?

Now I would like to know, is there really any need for Sharia Courts in the first place? What is wrong with Muslims using normal British courts instead?

Takes months/years to get places, costs a fair bit of money and both parties feel more comfortable with arbitrators than taking their next-door neighbour to court over who's allowed to prune the tree on the boundary line.

The same applies to courts of any other religion, they should all be scrapped and every single person provided with the same, equal, and fair for all law.

You do know that many non religious people have used the Jewish ones for years because they are fair, reliable and much quicker than the civil courts.

 

[bhavv]

They don't need protection under shariah they are protected under uk law.

I dont think you understand the level of control their fathers can have on them to prevent them from going to a British court, or the amount of fear they can live in for going against their parents desires.

For a lot of women who are forced to use religious courts, and even marry, life is complete hell, even in Britain. Going to the police is not easy, because they fear violent retaliation from their fathers.

You do know that many non religious people have used the Jewish ones for years because they are fair, reliable and much quicker than the civil courts.

The Jewish courts are not an extension of a larger political movement, which Sharia actually is. The Jews dont want anything similar to Sharia Law in their religion, but quite a number of Muslims do, and it already exists in many parts of the world, and it is not nice at all.

I very strongly disagree tht sharia courts on any level can completely as fair as normal British courts, there is too much possibility of having a judge who rules in favor of Islam, and not the individual.

 

[NeilF]

See again you do it time and time again...when will you learn that taking the sensationalist approach doesnt do you any favours??

Are women allowed to pray in mosques??...yes they are...obviously there is segregation within the mosque ie women pray in a different area to men. Now you might be sat there asking ok wheres the proof??..my proof is growing up in Canada where we had a massive mosque and i saw a lot and i mean a lot of women who prayed at the same mosque as men...not at different times but at the same time....in fact there were 2 levels and on the upper level is where the women prayed so that men could not see them.

Saying that i do find it very strange that in my mosque women arent allowed to pray but then my mosque is very small so with the amount of muslim men that go in there its hard nigh on impossible to fit any women in there. I dont agree with it and as a result i have contributed a lot of my own personal wealth ie savings towards a bigger mosque which im hoping will be finished by end of this year and then we will welcome any muslim women with open arms.

If you want further proof of this then here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XecPY9sydg

A video of a well renowned islamic scholar who says that women are allowed to pray in a mosque...also quotes from the Quran to back up his points.

Heres another one to mull over: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlyq-PjNJlk&feature=related

And the final one:


With added Hadiths from the Quran in case you start going on about proof from the Quran.

I hope that answers your question....as for muslim men stopping women from praying in a mosque...well thats totally utterly against the teachings of islam as a whole...in Gods eyes that is a big sin...who are we to deny a muslim the right to pray whether it be a man or female.

LOL! Ummmm, one of your selective quotes there seems to have backfired. "In Sahih Muslim Vol.1: hadith # 881: Ch # 175, it says : The best row for men is first row and worst is the last, and best row for women is the last row and worst is the first. (indicating that men and women can pray in the mosque). There are several other hadith."

So the row deemed worse, is where the women belong...?

I'm not entirely sure if Muslim beliefs are so much as sexist, but instead the cultures they tend to predominantly reside in.

Anyway, we are going completely of the OP of course

 

[samir_ansari]

See again you do it time and time again...when will you learn that taking the sensationalist approach doesnt do you any favours??

Are women allowed to pray in mosques??...yes they are...obviously there is segregation within the mosque ie women pray in a different area to men. Now you might be sat there asking ok wheres the proof??..my proof is growing up in Canada where we had a massive mosque and i saw a lot and i mean a lot of women who prayed at the same mosque as men...not at different times but at the same time....in fact there were 2 levels and on the upper level is where the women prayed so that men could not see them.

I think you may have completely missed izzy's point. He asked why they cannot pray alongside a man in a mosque, not why can't they pray in a mosque

 

[Yas786]

there are countless cases of women being forced to do things such as arranged marriages. What protection do they have under shariah?

None whatsoever...all they need to do is go to a british embassy whichever country they are in and ask for help, if they can do so but granted a lot of them wont because its down to the familys named being dragged through the mud ie dishonour etc and for the fact i dont agree with that....nowhere does it say in the Quran that a woman should be forced to marry someone.

Funnily enough a few yrs ago my cousin was forced to go to Pakistan to get married to some guy she didnt want to...i didnt know anything until she emailed me on the sly telling me what was going on...within hrs i was on the next plane over there to put a stop to it and i did...told her parents that what they were doing was wrong and not good....they didnt listen and proceeded to go through with it...i managed to get her away and bring her back here with me...she now has nothing to do with her family and neither do i or my family have anything to do with that particular uncle or aunt....tbh they were a bit fundamentalist and there were a lot of things he said to me that i didnt agree with when it came to islam ie telling me not to take pictures on my camera as its a sin and im like WTF are you on about?? lol as that just took the biscuit in all honesty.

 

[Tefal]

I dont think you understand the level of control their fathers can have on them to prevent them from going to a British court, or the amount of fear they can live in for going against their parents desires.

For a lot of women who are forced to use religious courts, and even marry, life is complete hell, even in Britain.

If the fathers have so much control they can stop them from attending a British court how will getting rid of Islamic arbitrators change anything?

They'll still be forced not to go to British courts so nothing changed.

Although is it really force when the person has a way out 3 button presses away?

The Jewish courts are not an extension of a larger political movement, which Sharia actually is. The Jews dont want anything similar to Sharia Law in their religion, but quite a number of Muslims do, and it already exists in many parts of the world, and it is not nice at all.

Doesn't matter what they are an extension off they abide by the exact same rules and regulations and have the same power.

I very strongly disagree tht sharia courts on any level can completely as fair as normal British courts, there is too much possibility of having a judge who rules in favor of Islam, and not the individual.

But both individuals are usually there because they want the Islamic ruling.

i.e they want to know what would be the correct resolution to thier civil difference in islamic terms.

and btw if a judge is deciding the case based on the individual not the law of the court that's one ****ing corrupt judge.

 

[NeilF]

I think you may have completely missed izzy's point. He asked why they cannot pray alongside a man in a mosque, not why can't they pray in a mosque

...and http://www.asianlite.co.uk/detail.asp?iPro=9845&iType=16

"Islam is not against education of women, but the idea is to let them acquire education but remain within the confines of their homes, as Islam clearly prescribes `purdah` for them and holds that they must look after their homes."

 

[Yas786]

I think you may have completely missed izzy's point. He asked why they cannot pray alongside a man in a mosque, not why can't they pray in a mosque

Oh sorry my bad...apologies to Izzy

I have no idea as to why that is in all honesty...obviously ive heard that a woman praying alongside a man deems his prayer invalid but i dont really accept that as a good enough reason.

I pray at home and my mum stands behind me...thats just the way we have been taught to pray that women and men dont pray alongside....as theres the fear that a woman praying next to a man might cause his gaze to wander or have untoward thoughts about that woman. Again i can see it from both sides....as men are easily tempted...i mean look at how many men cheat on their partners so even whilst praying it doesnt stop a man from having bad/untowards thoughts...well thats my reasoning behind it so im sticking to it as it makes the most sense to me

 

[bhavv]

Doesn't matter what they are an extension off they abide by the exact same rules and regulations and have the same power.

I just dont want Islam, Judaism, Christianity or any other religion making lawful decisions, when there is nothing wrong with going to a normal non religious court instead.

Why do religious groups need to be so against using a universal court system which provides the same treatment for everyone?

 

[Tefal]

I just dont want Islam, Judaism, Christianity or any other religion making lawful decisions, when there is nothing wrong with going to a normal non religious court instead.

So how about secular arbitrators should they be closed down too?

After all they are not the civil courts.

Why do religious groups need to be so against using a universal court system which provides the same treatment for everyone?

It's not just religious people, and like i said many choose to use arbitrators as they are cheaper, easier and quicker.

 

[bhavv]

They should have one same arbitration court for everyone where you swear your religion / lack of religion and do whatever is needed, no need for seperate ones for each religion or lack of religion.

'One Law For All'. <---- Thats all really, I dont think its too hard to understand. I dont like different groups of people getting different courts, I believe it segments them and contributes to cultural isolation, and doesnt show equality.

 

[Yas786]

LOL! Ummmm, one of your selective quotes there seems to have backfired. "In Sahih Muslim Vol.1: hadith # 881: Ch # 175, it says : The best row for men is first row and worst is the last, and best row for women is the last row and worst is the first. (indicating that men and women can pray in the mosque). There are several other hadith."

So the row deemed worse, is where the women belong...?

I'm not entirely sure if Muslim beliefs are so much as sexist, but instead the cultures they tend to predominantly reside in.

Anyway, we are going completely of the OP of course

Yes now read that quote again and tell me what does it say??...it says quite clearly from what i have understood of it is that for men standing at the front is the best whilst standing at the back is the worst....and for women it says exactly the same...stand at the front and not at the back. But of course as i said earlier women and men cannot pray alongside...thats the only rule that muslims have to stick by.

Now if you ever saw or have seen a proper islamic prayer, you will realise that its made up of lines of people standing next to each other...have a look at how big these lines can get when muslims go to Mecca for their annual Hajj pilgrimage...theres thousands upon thousands of muslims praying together with the women praying in another area but still praying at the same time...i went for my umraah a few yrs ago and i came back a much better person...felt cleansed and a born again muslim so to speak but i dont expect anyone here to understand that. But getting back on topic, the whole experience left me with goosebumps all over....im planning this yr to do my full Hajj again with my mum and hopefully my fiancee, who i should be marrying very soon...if not then next yr im taking her and shes a recent convert to islam and shes more into islam than i am....heck im learning from her

 

[Tefal]

They should have one same arbitration court for everyone where you swear your religion / lack of religion and do whatever is needed, no need for seperate ones for each religion or lack of religion.

Arbitrators are separate from the courts.



That's the whole point of them....



So are secular arbitrators ok or should all arbitration services be banned?

 

[bhavv]

I got what you meant, you didnt get what I meant. If Arbitrators are easier, then why cant there just be one single type that all people can use? Why do they have to be seperated between different belief sytems, or lack of belief system?

Im arguing for one law for everyone, not seperate ones for muslims, jews, christians, or atheists from an equality perspective, and seperation of religion from state.

 

[Tefal]

So the row deemed worse, is where the women belong...?

by that logic That means that the row deemed worse is where the men sit in the front too.

est row for women is the last row and worst is the first.

just like if it was referring to having a slash

The best place for men is the urinal and worst is the toilet, and best place for women is the toilet and worst is the urinal.


Remember Islam treats men as randy buggers who can't keep it in their pants, staring at a bunch of women's arses as they do some light yoga is (in Islam's eyes) going to put some dirty thoughts into the blokes minds, hence they sit at the front.

 

[Yas786]

That means that the row deemed worse is where the men sit in the front







just like if it was referring to having a slash

The best place for men is the urinal and worst is the toilet, and best place for women is the toilet and worst is the urinal.


Remember Islam treats men as randy bugger who can't keep it in their pants staring at a bunch of women's arses s they do some light yoga is (in Islam's eyes) going to put some dirty thoughts into the blokes minds, hence they sit at the front.

Spot on Tefal...you explained it better than i did and yes men within islam cant be trusted lol....but then its just not muslim men...i happen to think all or most men are filthy pervs no matter what religion they belong to or not

 

[Tefal]

I got what you meant, you didnt get what I meant. If Arbitrators are easier, then why cant there just be one single type that all people can use? Why do they have to be seperated between different belief sytems, or lack of belief system?

Im arguing for one law for everyone, not seperate ones for muslims, jews, christians, or atheists from an equality perspective, and seperation of religion from state.

it is one law for everyone though.

They come from times gone by when people would go down the vicarage and have the priest help them decide a simple matter that the magistrate wouldn't hear, as he was a nice trustworthy chap who would try to find the best compromise.

Compromise is what arbitrators often give that courts can't.


What your saying is though only atheists can have arbitrators which is pretty discriminatory, and basically shows that like the more right wing Islamic you believe your belief system is the only correct opne and everyone should be forced to use it regardless of what they think.


like i said before would you have anything against 2 people mutually deciding to solve their differences via a baked bean wrestling match?