#MeToo - is it just different for men and women?

[explicit4u]

appears to be more like a straw that broke that broke the camels back. There’s been plenty of talk about spains culture towards women. To do something like that on arguably the countries biggest international stage is bound to result in widespread anger. Good on them.

 

[Tony Edwards]

.. hasn't gone away

she could have had the presence of mind to push him away.

Bloody women.

 

[Freddie1980]

The kissing incident seems to keep finding it's way back into the news. Outrageous behaviour for sure but I can't help but think our press is being it's usual hypocritical self in the way it handles this story. Just imagine if the roles were reversed and guess how traction this story would get in that case?

 

[The Running Man]

Which is more aggressive?

Luis Rubiales kisses Jenni Hermoso after Spain’s victory in World Cup final

The president of the Spanish football federation, Luis Rubiales, has come in for criticism after he kissed forward Jenni Hermoso on the lips following Spain’...

youtu.be

They don't make footballers like Vinnie Jones anymore

They don't make footballers like Vinnie Jones anymore

youtu.be

 

[Deleted User 234324]

Which is more aggressive?

Luis Rubiales kisses Jenni Hermoso after Spain’s victory in World Cup final

The president of the Spanish football federation, Luis Rubiales, has come in for criticism after he kissed forward Jenni Hermoso on the lips following Spain’...

youtu.be

They don't make footballers like Vinnie Jones anymore

They don't make footballers like Vinnie Jones anymore

youtu.be

Those were the days, back when football wasn't played by a bunch of cry babies that fall over their own feet.

 

[The Running Man]

Those were the days, back when football wasn't played by a bunch of cry babies that fall over their own feet.

So you're saying that's okay?

The point is here that if we want equality and apologies for things that happened, why aren't people like Vinnie being asked to apologise for some of those near career ending.

And what you're doing is saying oh that's fine, no problem because they are men they can take a few acts of violence against them.

How is that equality?

 

[StriderX]

Those were the days, back when football wasn't played by a bunch of cry babies that fall over their own feet.

If the sport is filled with vain, uppity softies it's because the fans of the sport have made it that way by continuing to support it... thus making it worse because more money means more vanity.

 

[The Running Man]

If the sport is filled with vain, uppity softies it's because the fans of the sport have made it that way by continuing to support it... thus making it worse because more money means more vanity.

Again you're trying to legitimise the actions which were not acceptable on the football field clearly.

Setting out to injure someone in the work place should mot be acceptable.

 

[Nitefly]

The kissing incident seems to keep finding it's way back into the news. Outrageous behaviour for sure but I can't help but think our press is being it's usual hypocritical self in the way it handles this story. Just imagine if the roles were reversed and guess how traction this story would get in that case?

The ‘but what if it was reversed’ thing sounds compelling on ideas of equality that exist in a vacuum, as if all groups of people are the same, but it should never be given much weight because groups of people are fundamentally not the same and some groups have vulnerabilities that others do not to the same extent.

Of course men are subject to abuse and sexual violence from women. Of course! No sensible person would say otherwise. I have also been subject to sexism, so it’s obvious to me that can happen to men too.

… but it’s blatantly not the same overall situation for men and woman. This is overwhelmingly evident in my day to day life as a man, in which I don’t hold concern over how I will be treated because of my sex. I don’t have the same concerns when walking down dark alleys. I am not so physically vulnerable. Also, my value is not, to the same extent, fundamentally judged on my appearance, nor am I ever really ‘objectified’. It’s such a non-issue that I don’t ever really think about it. But many women do, because it is a daily reality for them.

Men have their own vulnerabilities, it’s fair to acknowledge those too.

As you point out, it was outrageous behaviour. At a moment where their achievements were to be celebrated, it was a reminder of all the daily treatment women get that and that men will treat women differently in unwanted situations.

All things considered, I’m not surprised about the outrage, nor on the press coverage, and good on those women who say they deserve to be treated better, because they do deserve better than that.

 

[The Running Man]

The ‘but what if it was reversed’ thing sounds compelling on ideas of equality that exist in a vacuum, as if all groups of people are the same, but it should never be given much weight because groups of people are fundamentally not the same and some groups have vulnerabilities that others do not to the same extent.

Of course men are subject to abuse and sexual violence from women. Of course! No sensible person would say otherwise. I have also been subject to sexism, so it’s obvious to me that can happen to men too.

… but it’s blatantly not the same overall situation for men and woman. This is overwhelmingly evident in my day to day life as a man, in which I don’t hold concern over how I will be treated because of my sex. I don’t have the same concerns when walking down dark alleys. I am not so physically vulnerable. Also, my value is not, to the same extent, fundamentally judged on my appearance, nor am I ever really ‘objectified’. It’s such a non-issue that I don’t ever really think about it. But many women do, because it is a daily reality for them.

Men have their own vulnerabilities, it’s fair to acknowledge those too.

As you point out, it was outrageous behaviour. At a moment where their achievements were to be celebrated, it was a reminder of all the daily treatment women get that and that men will treat women differently in unwanted situations.

All things considered, I’m not surprised about the outrage, nor on the press coverage, and good on those women who say they deserve to be treated better, because they do deserve better than that.

But under equality everyone is the same.

Have you never seen a manager tap another player on the butt as an act of encouragement? Infact there was an episode of Friends about just this type of activity as I remember.

This is sexual abuse and violition of a man's safe space.

But hardly anyone bats an eye at it. No calls for sackings. Why is that?

Why should the men have to suffer this indignity? Was she fired from her job and labelled a man abuser? There was no verbal or written consent.

 

[Nitefly]

Some bonus thoughts on this kissing incident…

There is seemingly some accusation of dishonesty over whether the player granted permission for the kiss or not.

Even if it was the case that she did, in that moment, provide a gesture of consent to the kiss, I would still argue that the incident was outrageous. Clearly, she didn’t want that sort of gesture from him, as is evident from the fallout. She should never have been put into that position to begin with: a situation where the act (whether she had said yes or no) would cloud her mind during those celebrations. The fact that she did say ‘yes’ would simply highlight the huge psychological power imbalance that woman face and the sorts of uncomfortable interactions that women are subject to by ignorant men.

 

[Nitefly]

But under equality everyone is the same.

Equality should require that everyone gets treated the same for doing the same things. But scenarios are often not ‘the same things’ when the identities of the perpetrator and/or victim are different. For example, I would expect an adult to be subject to more scrutiny for punching a child in the face than punching another adult in the face. Groups of people are different and equality should (and does) cater for this.

As for the rest of your post, I have never said that instances of sexual abuse against men should go unpunished or that men should suffer indignity. Those things do happen and they should be deal with accordingly. I acknowledged in my post that these things do occur. Everyone deserves respect and dignity.

 

[GGizmo]

I think a lot of it is cultural. Some of our media covering this from the view of British culture doesn't seem to acknowledge the difference. LBC compared it to if William kissed an England female footballer, which considering we don't generally kiss strangers would be extremely out of the ordinary.

From what I've been reading the female footballer involved as said she didn't consent. The guy, in my opinion should have asked if he could kiss her before he did it.

It also seemed odd to me is it was one kiss on the lips. I thought the mediterranean kissing was on both cheeks?

 

[RxR]

It's odd too that the Spanish FA are threatening legal action against the player.

Luis Rubiales suspended by FIFA as Spanish FA threatens legal action

The Spanish Football Association accuses Jenni Hermoso of lying about her response to a kiss from president Luis Rubiales and threatens legal action, as FIFA suspends the under-fire Spanish president.

www.abc.net.au

 

[The Running Man]

Equality should require that everyone gets treated the same for doing the same things. But scenarios are often not ‘the same things’ when the identities of the perpetrator and/or victim are different. For example, I would expect an adult to be subject to more scrutiny for punching a child in the face than punching another adult in the face. Groups of people are different and equality should (and does) cater for this.

As for the rest of your post, I have never said that instances of sexual abuse against men should go unpunished or that men should suffer indignity. Those things do happen and they should be deal with accordingly. I acknowledged in my post that these things do occur. Everyone deserves respect and dignity.

Well adults are treated differently to children in law and culture and I don't hear anyone trying to change this which is fine.

But what we are hearing is that we need complete equality between males and females - which is fine.

Then don't say it's fine for men to be sexually or violently assaulted but its not the opposite way around.

Lets go back through time and pick on instances where men have been assaulted but told to "be a man" and get on with it and and let's say no that wasn't okay. And yes do the same for women. Equality shouldn't all be one way traffic and instances of assault sexual or physical need to be consistently called out for both sexes. Otherwise its not equal...

 

[The Running Man]

I think a lot of it is cultural. Some of our media covering this from the view of British culture doesn't seem to acknowledge the difference. LBC compared it to if William kissed an England female footballer, which considering we don't generally kiss strangers would be extremely out of the ordinary.

From what I've been reading the female footballer involved as said she didn't consent. The guy, in my opinion should have asked if he could kiss her before he did it.

It also seemed odd to me is it was one kiss on the lips. I thought the mediterranean kissing was on both cheeks?

Yeah a random stranger would be a little bit odd. Thing is these two have known each other for some time, have worked, trained, experienced highs and lows together. And he managed their team to world Cup success. Practically the pinnacle of the sports achievement for both of them.

Should he have kissed her no i don't think so...

Could she have said behind closed doors after the fact, coach you're my coach but not my husband please don't kiss me again like that? And they could have both moved on probably had a moment and its dealt with.

 

[Roar87]

The woman was smiling and laughing the whole time, then basically tries to ruin his whole career and reputation over a celebratory peck on the lips. Could've gone to him privately and said she didn't appreciate it and told him it was inappropriate, sought an apology? Nah, just ruin the guys life.

 

[FoxEye]

Equality should require that everyone gets treated the same for doing the same things. But scenarios are often not ‘the same things’ when the identities of the perpetrator and/or victim are different. For example, I would expect an adult to be subject to more scrutiny for punching a child in the face than punching another adult in the face. Groups of people are different and equality should (and does) cater for this.

As for the rest of your post, I have never said that instances of sexual abuse against men should go unpunished or that men should suffer indignity. Those things do happen and they should be deal with accordingly. I acknowledged in my post that these things do occur. Everyone deserves respect and dignity.

I honestly don't think "equality" has been anyone's goal for a long time. These days it's all about "empowerment". There's no defined stopping point. Down with the patriarchy and that sort of thing.

 

[VincentHanna]

The woman was smiling and laughing the whole time, then basically tries to ruin his whole career and reputation over a celebratory peck on the lips. Could've gone to him privately and said she didn't appreciate it and told him it was inappropriate, sought an apology? Nah, just ruin the guys life.

She had just won the World Cup.

When asked immediately after about it, she said she didn't like it.

Ruin the guys life? He did it on camera for the World to see and other people really took against that. This hasn't all come from the player, in fact she seemed hesitant to cause a fuss at first.

 

[Deleted User 234324]

So you're saying that's okay?

The point is here that if we want equality and apologies for things that happened, why aren't people like Vinnie being asked to apologise for some of those near career ending.

And what you're doing is saying oh that's fine, no problem because they are men they can take a few acts of violence against them.

How is that equality?

Equality is a myth, it will never exist because men and women are not the same. It's 2023 everyone has the same opportunity and governed by the same rules. In fact some would argue its gone too far in the other direction.

As for the Vinnie Jones clip ok, I mean it was over 20 years ago, different times my friend. The world wasn't as soft as it is now. Everyone wasn't trying to be a victim.