Migrants - Italy making a stand

There's no appetite for unlimited influx of economic migrants in Europe, I've said it in the Tommy Robinson thread but if the EU are so against the 'far right' it's strange that their policies seem to be designed to push everyone there by for example completely ignoring the peoples of Europe. Even the word 'populist' that they use is an antagonistic term, it's basically the EU leaders ignoring the will of the people and doing whatever they want and then getting annoyed at democratic parties and groups who actually listen to the people and try to implement the policies they want rather than EU diktat.
Problem is those who don't want immigrants and complain "they are taking our jobs" are so entitled by a benefit culture that they don't then take "their jobs' back and labour markets are left with gaping holes.

So until "the people" are willing to work there will always be a huge need for immigrant labour.

My post clearly said immigrant labour, I'm not talking about refugees and the chap I responded to didn't seem to be either. I'm talking about those who come to the country specifically to work in a position be it high end (doctors) or low end (hotel staff) and our unemployed who complain about such are not skilled tondo the high end and see the low end in some way as "beneath" them.

I think people are confusing things here by talking about different groups, I won't quote the Chris Wilson post about refugees, though it does talk about migrants too... but a similar thing has happened here @mmj_uk is referring to the sort of economic migrants that are the subject of the thread, you seem to have gone off on a slight tangent to talk about immigrants coming here to work as doctors or fulfilling low end roles that employers can't otherwise fill... complaining about that sort of immigration is rather different to complaining about large numbers of people coming across the Mediterranean on boats
 
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I have previously posted in this thread making my argument, I hadn't checked in for a while and the post I quoted is what caught my eye.

I see idiots sharing that sort of crap all the time on social media though, literally how can people be so stupid? "This war veteran gets £80 a week pension, yet these ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are getting £1000's in benefits. Share if you think this is a disgrace" - Yawn.
 
Plenty of people here don't even know the difference between refugees and migrant workers.

It's the same sort of people who believe "illegal immigrants" are claiming £1000's in benefits

If they are illegal they are claiming nothing.

If they are illegal they should be sent back. None of this BBC speak of "Irregular migrants". They are costly aliens. Can you cite recent figures for how many the UK or Germany has returned?
 
They don't announce the next quarterly figures until the end of June

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2018/how-many-people-are-detained-or-returned

3. Returns
The total number of enforced returns from the UK, including those not directly from detention, decreased by 9% to 11,621 in year ending March 2018 compared with 12,766 in year ending March 2017; of these:

  • 24% of the total were enforced returns of people who had previously sought asylum (2,811), up 7% from the previous year (2,626)
 
Getting rid of Gaddafi was the worst decision anyone could have made. He was right all along.

Indeed. Libya was a rich country and the biggest sponge of sub Saharan Africa migration as it was always in need for labour.

With the collapse of the country, all warring factions now make pretty good profits in the people smuggling trade.

The whole issue starts with the NGOs. Most of them are operating as the extended arm of the smugglers. Couple are under investigation that actually are getting funded by the smugglers.

It is been proven that the NGO ships know where and when they will be a boat full or immigrants, the moment they go out of the Libyan territorial waters, they take them on their ship, while some times when weather is bad they just take them in just a mile off the shores withing Libyan waters.

Then they go and dump them to Italy.

The EU should start accepting these people in their home countries. They should setup immigration programs at the EU embassies in Africa and then fly the migrants in so they don't need to make this crossing. And then distribute them among Europe on a per capita basis. One look at the population projections for Africa show just how bad this problem is going to get. It'll get exponentially worse as the populations increase. For example, if the population of Nigeria doubles in the next n years I would expect the number of refugees to increase exponentially as global warming exacerbates the problem, causing famine, water shortages and war. Rather than waste time picking the refugees up in boats why not just fly them into Europe in an orderly manner? That way you cut out the people traffickers and get these young labour that Europe desperately needs in much more quickly. Just imagine if you fly the refugees directly in you can probably increase the numbers coming in much more.

EU decided to do exactly what you said. Distribute them across all the countries, this is not something new.
However. You have Britain vehemently saying no, not only to African immigrants but Syrian, Iraqi, Afgan, Yemeni also.
Romania, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Czechia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia and all the rest of Eastern countries, say no also. Especially Hungary is the spearhead of the disagreement of the EU threatening to even leave the Union with the rest.

Also they have closed their borders to any refugees or immigrants. That created a domino effect, closing all borders to Greece (via FYROM) and Italy effectively. Also France has closed the borders to any such traffic from Italy. Austria even built a wall for heaven sake.


So that has effectively made Italy and Greece the two big refugee dumps of the biggest migration since WWII. And both facing the same issue.
They are not Israel or Australia to start sinking boats and drowning people. So they have to accept everyone that lands on their shores. Italy of course can refuse the NGO ships.

Greece doesn't have this option. The distance between the Turkish shores and the Eastern Aegean Greek islands is pretty small. What they do is board the people into the tiny boats and the moment they see Greek or EU naval patrol they just sink the boat. As a country obligated by the Geneva and UN Human Rights conventions you have to save those people or else they will become fish food. (plenty of fat sharks in the area these days, last estimate their population has gone up tenfold the last 3 years)

Then moment are on your island is your problem actually. You have to register them, and give them asylum if they ask for it and they are coming from a country that indeed asylum is applicable, and let them free.
(only countries that could justify asylum are Syria, Yemen and Libyan nobody else).
Otherwise you send them back to the country they came for. This is an issue for Greece because Turkey threatens with war if that happens. Even the €2bn annual payments by the EU to Turkey to stop the migrants from leaving their shores, doesn't work. Already their PM Yildirim said last week that because Greece gave asylum to 8 Turkish Nationals they completely throw any deal with the EU, not that they followed it.

However the significant majority of those landing in Italy and Greece do not want to stay in Italy and Greece. So they do not want to apply for asylum, hence they stay in camps.

Initially both countries (Italy & Greece) partially assist them to move to their north borders so they can continue their trek to Germany. (please note it was Merkel who announced to the world that Germany has it's borders open to everyone, easy to say when between you and them are seas and dozen countries).

At the height of the crisis in 2014-15, EU had even put on freeze the Dublin agreement in relation of the immigrants. Something that both Greece & Italy were fighting because of Germany diplomacy they found themselves in the crap. However Germany has effectively now activated the Dublin agreement, sending back to Italy and Greece (countries were the immigrants first entered the EU) everyone they do not like in their country (especially criminals). Same applies to the other EU countries.

So both Italy & Greece have become effectively the EU refugee campsites. Especially in case of bankrupt Greece the situation is even worse having to provide everything to them including air condition units for cooling in the summer and heating in the winter! At the expense of the already financially wiped tax payers.

The situation is so bad especially in Lesbos, that the tourist economy of the island has collapsed completely, nobody can walk outside at night while robberies and theft are sky high.
Even farmers have issues having their livestock getting wiped out. Let alone conflicts between the refugees because some believe on different Islamic sect resulting even to deaths and chaos. (was one few weeks ago).

Complains and protests by the locals demanding from the central governments find a better solution, are just the sound of far right nazi sympathisers according to the lefty Greek government.
Some smaller islands like Kos has bigger issue because the immigrants stuck on the island are larger than the local population.


As for their numbers. In Greece alone there are 911,471 illegals (mainly in camps) as of March 2018, in addition to 517,000 that have received asylum and now classed as legal immigrants, just the last four years.
Please note the Greek population is bit over 9.5 million.

I doubt a far richer country like Britain can cope with that. But yet who cares here. When the main interests of US & UK are to remove Assad, put a puppet on it's place to control the gas & oil pipelines that must be built to stop Russia from selling gas & oil to EU. Then of course take control of the Iranian reserves.
 
As for their numbers. In Greece alone there are 911,471 illegals (mainly in camps) as of March 2018, in addition to 517,000 that have received asylum and now classed as legal immigrants, just the last four years.
Please note the Greek population is bit over 9.5 million.

I doubt a far richer country like Britain can cope with that. But yet who cares here. When the main interests of US & UK are to remove Assad, put a puppet on it's place to control the gas & oil pipelines that must be built to stop Russia from selling gas & oil to EU. Then of course take control of the Iranian reserves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries

It can be seen that the UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy etc. already have a much higher population density than France, Spain and Greece. Two to three times in fact. Therefore perhaps Greece, France and Spain are more suitable (provided adequate support)?
 
We've been sending to governments which, sadly, are only out for themselves. Direct building (ala China) is probably the solution.

We should be looking to do something as turning people in distress away is wrong, but then I agree with the sentiment that there is only so much you can possibly do before everything is broken and we cannot even help ourselves never mind them.

So for me that's building there for them, perhaps operating through the UN, and just cutting out corrupt local government.

China has pulled the wool over their eyes though. They are building infrastructure in return for stripping natural resources. They don't really care about the Africans. Once they move on from an area, what the Chinese have built is not maintained by the Africans and left to crumble. Same as all the buildings from the colonial era. Because they haven't been educated on how to.

What really ruined Africa was introducing foreign technology which was far ahead of where they were. It screwed up the natural progression. They now rely on it, but don't know how to replicate/build it. So they rely on the rest of the world to help them.
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries

It can be seen that the UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy etc. already have a much higher population density than France, Spain and Greece. Two to three times in fact. Therefore perhaps Greece, France and Spain are more suitable (provided adequate support)?

Please check the geographical map first and pay attention to the geology. Greece is a mountainous country in mainland without infrastructure or from the 1950s (and without busses this time) or thousands of small uninhabitable islands

Ignore the land density for a second, how you expect the NHS and education would cope if 9 million NEW migrants arrived in the UK between now and 2022?
That is the relative number in Greece at the moment. The 16% of the population arrived in the country just the last 4 years, all of them Muslims of Arab/Kurd/Afgan origin and without any skills.
And they do not want to stay in Greece. All of them want to go to Germany and UK getting angry and frustrated because the borders are closed. There are videos speaking to them in Athens and they waiting for a new Jihad to take up arms for heaven sake.

Greece in the 80s and 90s when it was flooded with eastern European (Albania, Georgia, Russia, Roumania, Serbia, Poland, Bulgaria, Lithuania) and Africa migration (predominately Nigeria), was able to cope and integrate them. More than 20% of the population by 2001 were immigrants but nobody complained about them only about the Albanian mafia that came with.
Hell one of the best NBA players atm Giannis Antetokounmpo born in Greece by Nigerian parents is someone that everyone call a Greek. Same applies to singers from Albanian descent like the one who presented the Cypriot song in Eurovision.
I grew up with that those decades. Greece had no immigration until then. Was pretty difficult for everyone to adjust overnight but I found it pretty cool. Was great to have schoolmates that just a year ago were in a different country. I helped them speak Greek (is difficult to learn a new language when you drop at the school in the middle) and they explained to me their cultures and their countries.
And played a lot of football....

But these people integrated from day one like EU citizens and most migrants have done in UK. Like I have.
 
China has pulled the wool over their eyes though. They are building infrastructure in return for stripping natural resources. They don't really care about the Africans.

Once they move on from an area, what the Chinese have built is not maintained by the Africans and left to crumble. Same as all the buildings from the colonial era.

Actually China is looking at it from a completely different perspective. They see a vast continent (Africa) left by the "colonial powers" ready to be picked.
They do what the colonial countries like UK and France didn't do. Educate the people and improve their infrastructure moving businesses and their economy forward.

In exchange they get nice big markets ready to sell their goods, a lot of resources and areas where they can create military bases and expand.
 
Actually China is looking at it from a completely different perspective. They see a vast continent (Africa) left by the "colonial powers" ready to be picked.
They do what the colonial countries like UK and France didn't do. Educate the people and improve their infrastructure moving businesses and their economy forward.

In exchange they get nice big markets ready to sell their goods, a lot of resources and areas where they can create military bases and expand.

That isn't too far off what European colonial powers did back in the day... Africa was more sparsely populated mind but certainly infrastructure was built, in the case of India plenty of infrastructure was built! China is just playing the same old game albeit they don't need to worry about other global powers fighting them over the resources.
 

Broadly correct, but you're misinterpreting a few important points. Merkel only made her stand after it was becoming clear that Europe wasn't willing to help Italy and Greece. Greece was already drowning under refugees (predominantly from Syria) and the countries nearby were closing their borders. With that backdrop she decided Germany would unilaterally aim to help, specifically with the Syrian refugee problem.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...welcome-to-remain-as-britain-is-10470062.html

She didn't "invite the world in", she tried to reduce the strain the refugees from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan were having on Greece, after the majority had made their way into Europe already.

That migrant/refugee crisis is completely different to the current situation in Italy and the western Med, which consists primarily of North and Sub Saharan Africans, the vast majority of whom were not invited into Germany, and who will not get Asylum. A significant proportion of these people are heading to France rather than Germany as they come from French speaking nations and have relatives in France already, due to the historic ties France has with their home nations.

It's a shame the EU didn't come together when the syrian crisis occured, instead we all decided to say it wasn't our problem, close our individual borders and let Greece and the poorer south eastern nations take the strain.

What should we be doing with the current Migrants? Difficult question. Our help in completely destabilising Libya certainly hasn't helped matters, and the instability means it's difficult to force the Migrants back to Libya (like we used to when Gadaffi was in charge - https://www.foreignbrief.com/middle-east/libya-deal-year-wherefore-migrant-crisis/). While it appears some are quite happy for us to allow them to just drown in the med I doubt that's a solution most would get behind. So the only real solution at the moment is to process them back in europe, which means without an EU wide system in place you end up with the majority of the work done by Italy, creating a similar problem to the issue Greece had. "I'm alright Jack" is fine for those countries not bordering the Med, but it doesn't help those that have to deal with the issue.

That said I don't agree with any NGO patrolling the Libyan maritime border and just picking them up and ferrying them over here, especially as most of them are not going to be granted a right to remain or asylum.
 
What should we be doing with the current Migrants? Difficult question.

It is difficult mate, however is not Syrians only. From the 911,471 of those refusing to ask for asylum, 54.80% are Syrians, 23.40% Afgans, 10.07% Iraqis.
None of them want to stay in Greece hence none of them asks for asylum, and all of them want to move to central Europe, predominately Germany where the rest of their families are.

However because of that "limbo" they cannot do anything other than living in camps and wandering around. There is another three quarters of million who decided to call it a day and ask asylum, Greece provided it, including housing in rural Greece and some monthly benefit to try live and find what ever jobs they can. Including of course free access to schools and full health care including all mandatory vaccinations.

And nobody has issues with these, because they do try to make a living and try to integrate. Yes many will get "black jobs" so no taxes or anything but at least they try.
The others do not.

Here though the irony is that the Greeks are not entitled to any benefits these days. And those who lose their jobs only if they were working the last 60 months straight, are married and have children can get some help for 6 months only. Otherwise nothing.

That on a country that has the smallest percentage of the population at work. Just 1.8million.
 
Here though the irony is that the Greeks are not entitled to any benefits these days. And those who lose their jobs only if they were working the last 60 months straight, are married and have children can get some help for 6 months only. Otherwise nothing.

That on a country that has the smallest percentage of the population at work. Just 1.8million.

your EU masters thank you for your service... just a couple of generations of pain to go and maybe you can get rid of austerity
 
Actually China is looking at it from a completely different perspective. They see a vast continent (Africa) left by the "colonial powers" ready to be picked.
They do what the colonial countries like UK and France didn't do. Educate the people and improve their infrastructure moving businesses and their economy forward.

In exchange they get nice big markets ready to sell their goods, a lot of resources and areas where they can create military bases and expand.

Indeed. They have an angle but it's a better angle than pouring in guilt money that ends up in dictators and their cronies pockets. (Though I'm sure China are smoothing the way with a few backhanders)
 
your EU masters thank you for your service... just a couple of generations of pain to go and maybe you can get rid of austerity

I do not see your point. Greece never had benefits system. At best you could get 6 months unemployment help (the equivalent of £60 per month during the 90s) if you were working last 4 years during the 90s.
 
I do not see your point. Greece never had benefits system. At best you could get 6 months unemployment help (the equivalent of £60 per month during the 90s) if you were working last 4 years during the 90s.

it wasn't meant to be too serious (this is GD not SC) I'm pretty ignorant re: what specific benefits you used to have vs what cuts Greece has had to make

He doesn't haven't a point, just want to take a pop at the EU.

on the contrary, I was just pointing out that the EU are very grateful to the Greeks for the pain they're currently going through and that it will only take a couple of generations...
 
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