Migrants - Italy making a stand

dowie said:
it wasn't meant to be too serious (this is GD not SC) I'm pretty ignorant re: what specific benefits you used to have vs what cuts Greece has had to make
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No worries :) I know you want to go against EU but Greece never had benefit system.

I would go with you calling Eurozone out on the atrocious terms of the Greek loans, but I doubt if anyone in here has a clue about those. Even if they were similar to the 1941 surrendering terms the Third Reich demanded from Greece after 7 months defending the mainland against the Axis. (yeah we lasted more than the French)
Also here in UK for some reason the anti EU rhetoric has stayed on pretty frugal non issues. All the EU issues I and many have are inside the Eurozone, where Germany has established the Fourth Reich.
Outside of Eurozone (but in the EU) everything is hunky dory believe me.

And the biggest problem for everyone in there is that Britain is leaving allowing Germany to run wild. Until France votes for Marrie that is.

I could write you a huge list of things that could make every Brexiteer in this country boil and demand exodus without deal. However for the economy here, that is damaging. Hence I am against the Brexit not because of the concept of it, but the inability of the UK politicians to grasp the issues and come with solutions.
Instead they brush everything under the carpet. Or worse, gambling with the lives of the EU citizens here, including mine. :/
 
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Panos said:
It is difficult mate, however is not Syrians only. From the 911,471 of those refusing to ask for asylum, 54.80% are Syrians, 23.40% Afgans, 10.07% Iraqis.
None of them want to stay in Greece hence none of them asks for asylum, and all of them want to move to central Europe, predominately Germany where the rest of their families are.

However because of that "limbo" they cannot do anything other than living in camps and wandering around. There is another three quarters of million who decided to call it a day and ask asylum, Greece provided it, including housing in rural Greece and some monthly benefit to try live and find what ever jobs they can. Including of course free access to schools and full health care including all mandatory vaccinations.

And nobody has issues with these, because they do try to make a living and try to integrate. Yes many will get "black jobs" so no taxes or anything but at least they try.
The others do not.

Here though the irony is that the Greeks are not entitled to any benefits these days. And those who lose their jobs only if they were working the last 60 months straight, are married and have children can get some help for 6 months only. Otherwise nothing.

That on a country that has the smallest percentage of the population at work. Just 1.8million.
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I was talking about the migrants coming from North Africa in that paragraph, not the (predominantly refugees) in Greece, who the Germans were trying to help Greece with.

The solution to that issue would be a to put a trans EU system in place, with EU funding to help pay the cost of food, accommodation, processing and transport of these people around the EU after they are cleared and granted asylum.

Unfortunately too many countries declined to join in so Greece has had to suffer largely on her own (with Germany providing some assistance).
 
Amp34 said:
I was talking about the migrants coming from North Africa in that paragraph, not the (predominantly refugees) in Greece, who the Germans were trying to help Greece with.

The solution to that issue would be a to put a trans EU system in place, with EU funding to help pay the cost of food, accommodation, processing and transport of these people around the EU after they are cleared and granted asylum.

Unfortunately too many countries declined to join in so Greece has had to suffer largely on her own (with Germany providing some assistance).
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Or return them to country of origin.
 
Lord-Jaffa said:
Economic illegal immigrant you mean?
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No, that was talking about the (predominantly) refugees that came from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan as was pretty clear in my post (separate paragraph...).

Or are you proving VincentHanna and Freakbro right, you can't tell the difference and/or like to conflate the two for your own purposes?

EDIT: TO be clear there are two distinct issues being discussed here.

There's the refugees from Syria/Iraq and Afghanistan that are predominantly in Greece.

Amp34 said:
The solution to that issue would be a to put a trans EU system in place, with EU funding to help pay the cost of food, accommodation, processing and transport of these people around the EU after they are cleared and granted asylum.

Unfortunately too many countries declined to join in so Greece has had to suffer largely on her own (with Germany providing some assistance).
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And the predominantly economic migrants coming from North Africa:

Amp34 said:
What should we be doing with the current Migrants? Difficult question. Our help in completely destabilising Libya certainly hasn't helped matters, and the instability means it's difficult to force the Migrants back to Libya (like we used to when Gadaffi was in charge - https://www.foreignbrief.com/middle-east/libya-deal-year-wherefore-migrant-crisis/). While it appears some are quite happy for us to allow them to just drown in the med I doubt that's a solution most would get behind. So the only real solution at the moment is to process them back in europe, which means without an EU wide system in place you end up with the majority of the work done by Italy, creating a similar problem to the issue Greece had. "I'm alright Jack" is fine for those countries not bordering the Med, but it doesn't help those that have to deal with the issue.

That said I don't agree with any NGO patrolling the Libyan maritime border and just picking them up and ferrying them over here, especially as most of them are not going to be granted a right to remain or asylum.
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It's unlikely one solution would fit both situations as they are distinctly different.
 
Refugees from war should stop at the first safe country (if they are fleeing a warzone, not just pretending too like most are), not pick and choose the most comfortable country offering the best handouts to them whilst moving through a dozen other safe counties on route.

It seems like it's you who cant tell the difference, as soon as they attempt to get to central Europe, they are Illegal Economic Migrants.
 
So you are proving their point then, good to know.

It's also worth pointing out the majority are in land bordered "safe" countries, most living in refugee camps which are generally described with comments like "inhuman conditions" and "hellish".

Many of those that lived in those conditions subsequently left and sought refuge in the next location - predominantly Greece. The other solution would be to starve, or if really desperate sell your kids into marriage to be able to afford food (and to feed the kids).

They ARE refugees, which is why they are being treated as such.
 
Amp34 said:
So you are proving their point then, good to know.

It's also worth pointing out the majority are in land bordered "safe" countries, most living in refugee camps which are generally described with comments like "inhuman conditions" and "hellish".

Many of those that lived in those conditions subsequently left and sought refuge in the next location - predominantly Greece. The other solution would be to starve, or if really desperate sell your kids into marriage to be able to afford food (and to feed the kids).

They ARE refugees, which is why they are being treated as such.
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They don't seem to have many kids with them, nor fathers, mothers or sisters. The vast majority seem sub 30 year old males., most of whom claim to have no proper ID. To many like myself this makes them look as dodgy as hell in their intent.
 
What you are describing is the very definition of an economic migrant.

economic migrant
noun
  1. a person who travels from one country or area to another in order to improve their standard of living.
You even have a guy from greece here saying they don't register for asylum in Greece because they want to travel (illegally) to a country where they will receive greater state handouts.

There is a reason they claim to be minors, or destroy their identification and country of origin, so people who get all emotional over the situation will cry their eyes out trying to help them.

When economic migrant rates hit the tens of or hundreds of millions as is predicted, will you still be all salty when people call it out for what it is?
 
Chris Wilson said:
They don't seem to have many kids with them, nor fathers, mothers or sisters. The vast majority seem sub 30 year old males., most of whom claim to have no proper ID. To many like myself this makes them look as dodgy as hell in their intent.
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Presumably you're talking about the refugees coming in from Syria etc (not North Africa)? If so you're wrong.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/refugee-invaders-meme

(And the link further down this post).

If you're talking about the subject of this thread (Those coming from Libya) then yes, you're probably right as most of them are economic migrants.

Lord-Jaffa said:
What you are describing is the very definition of an economic migrant.

economic migrant
noun
  1. a person who travels from one country or area to another in order to improve their standard of living.
You even have a guy from greece here saying they don't register for asylum in Greece because they want to travel (illegally) to a country where they will receive greater state handouts.

There is a reason they claim to be minors, or destroy their identification and country of origin, so people who get all emotional over the situation will cry their eyes out trying to help them.

When economic migrant rates hit the tens of or hundreds of millions as is predicted, will you still be all salty when people call it out for what it is?
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So I guess by that definition you could be an economic migrant and a refugee then...

There's definitely an argument that once refugees get into Europe and start moving around that they could then be considered in part an economic migrant, however that's a political issue that Merkel was trying to solve in 2015. Leaving Greece to deal with all of them was not and is not fair IMO, but EU countries are now sending people back to Greece as the "first safe country" that have arrived in more recent times, as the situation in Greece has stabilised.

And you'll be pleased to know asylum applications have dropped rapidly since the influx of during 2015/16 to a more normal rate.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...t-time_applicants:_560_thousand_fewer_in_2017

That said it's doubtful those coming from North Africa are applying for asylum (the vast majority of asylum applications over the last few years have been from Syria, with a third of them being under 18 and around a third of them female).

As I said before, to conflate the migrants coming from North Africa and those coming into Greece from places like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan is to wofully fail to understand the issue, and subsequently come up with any proportionate response to it.
 
Amp34 said:
Presumably you're talking about the refugees coming in from Syria etc (not North Africa)? If so you're wrong.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/refugee-invaders-meme

(And the link further down this post).

If you're talking about the subject of this thread (Those coming from Libya) then yes, you're probably right as most of them are economic migrants.



So I guess by that definition you could be an economic migrant and a refugee then...

There's definitely an argument that once refugees get into Europe and start moving around that they could then be considered in part an economic migrant, however that's a political issue that Merkel was trying to solve in 2015. Leaving Greece to deal with all of them was not and is not fair IMO, but EU countries are now sending people back to Greece as the "first safe country" that have arrived in more recent times, as the situation in Greece has stabilised.

And you'll be pleased to know asylum applications have dropped rapidly since the influx of during 2015/16 to a more normal rate.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...t-time_applicants:_560_thousand_fewer_in_2017

That said it's doubtful those coming from North Africa are applying for asylum (the vast majority of asylum applications over the last few years have been from Syria, with a third of them being under 18 and around a third of them female).

As I said before, to conflate the migrants coming from North Africa and those coming into Greece from places like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan is to wofully fail to understand the issue, and subsequently come up with any proportionate response to it.
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When the Irish moved as economic migrants to the US and Canada they didn't leave their families behind and just the sub thirty year old men go over, so why are these Africans leaving them? What are all the Pakistanis fleeing? The shear volume of migration is staggering and untenable, the longer the EU procrastinate the worse the potential unrest in the future. People will plead these migrants corner until it kicks off in the Balkans again, then it will be "shock horror, how can this possibly have occurred?"
 
Chris Wilson said:
When the Irish moved as economic migrants to the US and Canada they didn't leave their families behind and just the sub thirty year old men go over, so why are these Africans leaving them? What are all the Pakistanis fleeing? The shear volume of migration is staggering and untenable, the longer the EU procrastinate the worse the potential unrest in the future. People will plead these migrants corner until it kicks off in the Balkans again, then it will be "shock horror, how can this possibly have occurred?"
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I'm not sure I get your point.

I've already said I agree that most of the Africans are Economic migrants.

The question is what do we do with them/how do we stop them?

We used to have a deal with Gadaffi, but since we bombed the country into the ground and helped it destabilise itself there is no single entity in Libya that we can deal with that can help us in the way Gadaffi did.

What's your solution?
 
Chris Wilson said:
When the Irish moved as economic migrants to the US and Canada they didn't leave their families behind and just the sub thirty year old men go over, so why are these Africans leaving them? What are all the Pakistanis fleeing? The shear volume of migration is staggering and untenable, the longer the EU procrastinate the worse the potential unrest in the future. People will plead these migrants corner until it kicks off in the Balkans again, then it will be "shock horror, how can this possibly have occurred?"
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When the Irish moved to the US there also wasn't a huge culture clash, which is a large part of the problem. It's not as if the US ever struggled for living space either.
 
Germany migrant row threatens Merkel coalition


A major rift has opened up between German Chancellor Angela Merkel and her interior minister over migrant policy, threatening her coalition government.

The minister, Horst Seehofer of the Christian Social Union (CSU), wants police to have the power to turn away undocumented migrants at the border.

Mrs Merkel has held emergency talks with her Christian Democrat (CDU) MPs.

She wants a new deal at EU level over migrants. She was widely criticised for letting in about one million in 2015.

Mr Seehofer has been a long-standing critic of that open-door policy, which was summed up at the time by Mrs Merkel's phrase "we can manage".

He says German border police should turn back all asylum seekers who lack IDs and those already registered in another EU country.

Mrs Merkel sees that as a "go-it-alone" policy which would further hurt Italy and Greece, countries whose capacity to house migrants is stretched to breaking point. Among them are many refugees from the Syria war and other conflict zones.

While Mrs Merkel's CDU MPs gave her their support on Thursday, their Bavarian colleagues from the CSU decisively backed their leader, Mr Seehofer.

The "sister" conservative parties have been in alliance at the federal level since 1949.

There is a risk that the CSU could break away, or at least trigger a confidence vote in Mrs Merkel's leadership. In the 709-seat Bundestag (lower house) the CDU has 200 seats and the CSU 46.

The ruling coalition with the Social Democrats (SPD) has 399 seats, but without the CSU that would fall to 353 - less than a majority.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44481447
 
Amp34 said:
I'm not sure I get your point.

I've already said I agree that most of the Africans are Economic migrants.

The question is what do we do with them/how do we stop them?

We used to have a deal with Gadaffi, but since we bombed the country into the ground and helped it destabilise itself there is no single entity in Libya that we can deal with that can help us in the way Gadaffi did.

What's your solution?
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No need to reinvent the wheel, Australia had a workable solution. Forget the UN's whining, they are showing as totally useless against this unique invasion.

If these people were commandeering planes or being put on NGO run planes they'd never be allowed flight clearance and there's no way shipping lanes should be treated any differently with modern technology. Send them back, by force if necessary. Seize and scuttle any vessels that attempt to land illegally.
 
Or, a more civilised approach - since these people either pay people smugglers or risk their lives alone to come to what they are told is going to be a better life - would be to get the message back to these areas that they are being sold a lie and it's not all milk and honey over here and they will just end up just as destitute and poor, probably in a camp, and now away from their families.
 
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