OCUK Body Builders: Post your Pics!
- Thread starter Jeffstar
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SK07 said:
theres skinny muscle, and decent muscle. Without some mass building you'll have a bony-muscley physique. What i mean to say is there is a difference between big and big. There is big like some of the peeps in this thread like wardie and maybe even me, where 6 or 7 months of hard training and good nutrition is paying off, then theres big like morba who's obviously been training a fair bit longer, then theres big like the semi pro's who have been training hard for over 5 years then there is big like the top stars who have decades under their belt.
Its easy to overestimate your relative size early through the rose tinted specs of short lived body shape changes. It takes a looooong time to get a physique that impresses anyone.
However none of this is aimed at taking away from your achievements, if you're happy with your gains and program then thats great, if your eating chicken and steak on a regular basis then yes you might not need supps for what you want. But i reckon in the near future you'll either quit or find yourself up against a wall, that is where the info posted in this thread will help.
The main reason I joined the gym was to lose fat and basically tone up. Im already pretty big, im not skinny. Im 6'3 with broad shoulders etc the works. Why do you say I'll be up against a brick wall?
Sorry just don't see the point in gaining mass and bulking and heavy weight training ONLY. Im aiming to lose body fat. Drop the percentage then I'll think about the future.
Sorry just don't see the point in gaining mass and bulking and heavy weight training ONLY. Im aiming to lose body fat. Drop the percentage then I'll think about the future.
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SK07 said:
People often plateau anywhere between 3-6 months in when their nutrition is not geared around their goals. If your 6'3 and broad shouldered then chances are you have a mesomorphic physique and, yes, will not be skinny as such.
If your just looking to lose weight then theres even more reason for you to get interested in supplements. I have about 3 optimum nutrition whey shakes a day each containing about 45g protein with around 150kcal the meats you are using to support your muscle probably weigh in at more like 300kcal per serving. At least they would to provide that much protein, plus theres the cost issue, lean chicken breast and steak aint cheap!
Look if you're happy doing what you do then carry on, if you percivere long enough you will lose the weight and can then think about maybe gaining more muscle, all im suggesting are ways to OPTIMIZE things toward your goals to help you arrive quicker. Then again im an impatient bugger
Ultra_Extreme said:
Okay im not really fat, however the body fat percentage does need to come down, think its at 23%. Only place I carry fat or w.e is the stomach. It's not a big gut but a just a small one im trying to get that down even though it's turning out to be a mission. So far I've lost inches of my waist which is great, the stomach is down but it's not 100% flat. It doesn't overhang or anything it's just not flat yet. I don't think I'd like to be a fat body builder.
Okay put it this way. I just want to make sure im in perfect FORM. By that I mean I want the body fat lowered, higher fitness, better nutrition and the stomach especially to be toned not saying a six pack but I just want it flat and firm. I don't want to rush into body building and bulking when im not ready.
Im 18 I reckon I have enough time to sort out anything I need to lose as I understand it's harder once you get older to lose body fat etc. I understand that I would no doubt have to hit supplements if I was bulking.
Im trying to get as healthy as I can in order to lose body fat at a more efficient rate, im not rushing it at all. I drink water only pretty much, and I eat well, maybe not to everyones standards but im trying to do the best I can.
Infact I got a smoothie maker. If anyone can advice me on receipes to use that's great for taking before, after the gym or even in the morning, anytime of the day even. How many to have per day. I heard peanut butter, honey etc is good for you to stick in a smoothie. I don't mind to much willing to try anything really as long as it's generally good for me and going to benefit in the long run. Im making smoothies with fruit as well. I drink around 2 - 3l of water a day.
you could replace some of your wholefood meals with precisely balanced shakes. For example, in the morning i have a scoop of whey (choc), 300ml skimmed milk, one bannana, some honey and 1/2 a cup of oats, maybe half a cup of all bran too. Blended till smooth.
This gives about 60g protein, 50g carbs and about 2g fat. That'll beat any wholefood brekkie you care to suggest and theres no excuse for missing it.
This gives about 60g protein, 50g carbs and about 2g fat. That'll beat any wholefood brekkie you care to suggest and theres no excuse for missing it.
UEX said:
Thats all fine and all but I don't know how to calculate all this. I haven't got that much idea on supplements nevermind nutrition. Reason I don't buy Whey is because I don't know if I need it. I don't calculate what I eat in a day it's all presumed, yes that's wrong I know.
Everything you suggested there is fine but do I need the whey? how do you make sure your getting enough protein? not too much? too little? how do you know how to balance the fat etc?. Also I have no idea what im supposed to eat in a day. I just presume.
I believe you work out what you need on this kinda scale (some 1 correct me if im wrong)
Protein around 2-2.5g's per lb of body weight
Carbs around 1g per lb
Fats (polys/monos) around 0.5g per lb
So its pretty straight forward, i weighed 150lbs so i was aiming for around 300g protein 150g carbs 75g fats
Now my weight has gone up I need slightly more of all
Protein around 2-2.5g's per lb of body weight
Carbs around 1g per lb
Fats (polys/monos) around 0.5g per lb
So its pretty straight forward, i weighed 150lbs so i was aiming for around 300g protein 150g carbs 75g fats
Now my weight has gone up I need slightly more of all
Yeah rich is fundamentally right, for a long term diet the outlined quantities would suit both staying lean and building muscle (commonly called a recomp plan).
In answer to your question about calculating nutrition, weight loss is far simpler than some would have you believe, whatever you hear its all about calories in versus calories out.
If you spend a few weeks dilligently recording your diet by calories you will gain a good grasp of whats good and whats not. My GF was being 'good' for weeks and complaining of poor results. When i analysed her diet she rarely if ever took in less than her maintainance intake (the calorie amount required to simply maintain current body mass). In fact most days she was exceeding it by between 20 and 100 calories, thus in time would actually gain weight!
Most of this was due to small errors in food preperation rather than poor food choice. Of course she is a woman with an underactive lifestyle and thus has a maintainance calorie level of only 1600 per day. Yours like most men who train would likely be between 3000 and 5000.
The key things to note are calories in a given meal, and also where these calories come from. This is because although you could in theory build your diet around any food type (fat, protein, carbohydrate) such an imbalanced diet could have bad repercussions. For instance a diet based wholly around fat would result in very little food intake during the day, this is because fats are very high in calories. Eating very little causes shifts in metabolism that will cause fat retention and sensitivity to carbohydrates in the future, meaning essentially you shoot yourself in the foot by slowing your metabolism and burning fewer calories in your normal daily routine, you will also be more lethargic as a result.
Generally, as was mentioned by R5Rich, you need to split your intakes based on your goals. Fat loss alone requires low fat and carbs, moderate protein. You would adjust the carbs based on the level of activity you persue in a day. Bowls of pasta, oats, brown rice etc would be great for an endurace athlete for example, complex carbohydrates like these burn slow and release energy over a mid to long period. Carbs however can be the source of substantial weight gain (as any big beer drinker could testify) and thus must be controlled accordingly (ie not taken in when excercise will not follow, such as in the evening).
My reccommended split for any man who wants to lose some weight and gain some muscle is this.
protein - 2-3g per lb bodyweight (to acieve this you WILL need protein powders)
Carbs - 1-1.5g per lb of bodyweight (never after 3pm unless you are training late, if training late use sugars instead)
Fats - 0.5g per lb of bodyweight (steer clear of saturates, use olive or canola oil, or flax seed oil. Sunflower spreads etc)
This plus a good training reigime will be conducive to both fat loss and muscle gain. It wont be as fast as a severe cut (say 1.5g protein, <1g carb, almost no fat at all) but will be something that can be done permanently to service a good physique.
Man thats a\ long post!
Oh one more thing i forgot, protein, especially whey and casein which are found in whey shakes (when made with milk) supress the appetite well and are great for reducing total food intake in a day.
In answer to your question about calculating nutrition, weight loss is far simpler than some would have you believe, whatever you hear its all about calories in versus calories out.
If you spend a few weeks dilligently recording your diet by calories you will gain a good grasp of whats good and whats not. My GF was being 'good' for weeks and complaining of poor results. When i analysed her diet she rarely if ever took in less than her maintainance intake (the calorie amount required to simply maintain current body mass). In fact most days she was exceeding it by between 20 and 100 calories, thus in time would actually gain weight!
Most of this was due to small errors in food preperation rather than poor food choice. Of course she is a woman with an underactive lifestyle and thus has a maintainance calorie level of only 1600 per day. Yours like most men who train would likely be between 3000 and 5000.
The key things to note are calories in a given meal, and also where these calories come from. This is because although you could in theory build your diet around any food type (fat, protein, carbohydrate) such an imbalanced diet could have bad repercussions. For instance a diet based wholly around fat would result in very little food intake during the day, this is because fats are very high in calories. Eating very little causes shifts in metabolism that will cause fat retention and sensitivity to carbohydrates in the future, meaning essentially you shoot yourself in the foot by slowing your metabolism and burning fewer calories in your normal daily routine, you will also be more lethargic as a result.
Generally, as was mentioned by R5Rich, you need to split your intakes based on your goals. Fat loss alone requires low fat and carbs, moderate protein. You would adjust the carbs based on the level of activity you persue in a day. Bowls of pasta, oats, brown rice etc would be great for an endurace athlete for example, complex carbohydrates like these burn slow and release energy over a mid to long period. Carbs however can be the source of substantial weight gain (as any big beer drinker could testify) and thus must be controlled accordingly (ie not taken in when excercise will not follow, such as in the evening).
My reccommended split for any man who wants to lose some weight and gain some muscle is this.
protein - 2-3g per lb bodyweight (to acieve this you WILL need protein powders)
Carbs - 1-1.5g per lb of bodyweight (never after 3pm unless you are training late, if training late use sugars instead)
Fats - 0.5g per lb of bodyweight (steer clear of saturates, use olive or canola oil, or flax seed oil. Sunflower spreads etc)
This plus a good training reigime will be conducive to both fat loss and muscle gain. It wont be as fast as a severe cut (say 1.5g protein, <1g carb, almost no fat at all) but will be something that can be done permanently to service a good physique.
Man thats a\ long post!
Oh one more thing i forgot, protein, especially whey and casein which are found in whey shakes (when made with milk) supress the appetite well and are great for reducing total food intake in a day.
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Caporegime
SK07 said:
I am almost at the point of not replying to any of your posts. you have been told many times that this is not possible (outside of the honeymoon period) without bloody great genetics and an outstanding grasp on your nutrition and training.
you do one or the other, you bulk or you cut. there is no toning.
you bulk to get the muscle you want, you cut to drop the bodyfat.
you will be up against a wall because of what i have just said, you are trying to do both cut and bulk at the same time, which very soon will stop happening for you.
Man of Honour
SK07 said:
Morba isn't saying that you cannot do weights while cutting, in fact I've never seen him even suggest it because from what I know he is very much in favour of weights as a general rule for exercise. But as he says you (as a presumably normal person with normal genetics) will be able to bulk (and put on weight in the form of fat as well as muscle) or cut (and lose fat + some muscle although hopefully as little as possible) and outside of the very start of training you probably won't be able to do both and still see gains. If you try to combine them then unless you have a good knowledge of your bodies capabilities and a good grasp on your diet you will most likely negate your efforts at best and slide backwards at worst.
If you want to do cardio to boost fitness then that is great but if you do a lot of cardio you potentially also risk losing some muscle as well as the fat as I understand it.
Usual disclaimer of I am not an expert applies but I think the above is correct, if not I hope someone will point out my error(s).
Soldato
Morba said:
Sounds to me like the best thing to do is a lean bulk if he doesn't want extra fat. Though it's inevitable to gain fat whilst bulking.
I would like to mention that although peeps here are right in a sense saying that you must 'choose' to bulk more or cut more. I dont think it is so black and white.
For skinny buggers (hardgainers) it is a necessity to bulk hard then cut or they will never get anywhere. For people who hold natural bodyfat it is important to build a good muscle to bodyweight ratio.
This is because, as mentioned in my long earlier post, muscle needs a loit of energy to support itself. Thus, take 2 people, 1 is 16st lean muscle the other 16st pure fat. The muscle man will require (total geuss at numbers here) say 4000 calories in a day simply to support walking, talking, breathing etc The fatty might only require 2000 and any overhead will be absorbed by bodyweight anyway.
To use a less extreme and more relevent example, lets take SK07 and Myself. We are both, according to his posts, the same height and about the same weight. However, for arguments sake lets say that i have 20% more muscle that him. Very roughly, i will burn around 25% more calories in a normal inactive day, just sitting around. So say we follow the same 3000 calorie per day diet, his maintainance calories for the day could be 3500 whereas mine could be 4000. Thus every day i lose 1000 calories worth of fat (roughly 1/3 of a pound) whereas he only loses 500 calories of fat (1/6lb).
You see this IS important, cutting is SO much harder if you dont have a good foundation of muscle. However i digress, my original point was that it is not as impossible as people say to gain muscle and lose fat. If you are already pretty big a la Morba, then to do both is pretty much a waste of time, at best you'll tread water. But for you SK07 you should be able to improve the speed of your weight loss by actually gearing your diet towards muscle GAIN.
Simply take in lots of protein (lots more than a 'normal' person), train in the bulk rep range of 8-12. Keep trains to under 1.5hours. Have a powerful post-workout shake. Do morning cardio. Keep total daily calories around or under 3000. This will result in a progressive muscle growth period that slowly accelerates fat loss. As i said before this is commonly called a recomposition program, meaning you recompose you body:fat:muscle ratios. It will not give the muscle mass of a bulk and will not drop the fat like a cut. But it will build a foundation of muscle and metabolism that can then be exploited to either gain muscle or lose fat quickley in the future.
To answer your earlier Q, a good example of a daily recomp diet would be,
morning
as soon as awake
Blended shake = 50g whole oats, 50g whey protein (ON100% GS choc), 10g Maltodextrin, teaspoon olive oil, bannana. ~400 cals
11am
Standard whey shake with skim milk ~ 130cal
1pm
Scrambled egg on toast 4 eggs but only 2 yolk, light scraping olive spread ~ 450 cals
3pm
Whey shake ~ 130cals
dinner
16oz Rump steak (or chick breast) with vegetables no butter ~ 1000 cals
before bed
Whey shake ~ 130
Total cals ~ 2240
great for losing weight as a big guy yet taking in over 300g of protein while training right cant fail to gain you muscle.
For skinny buggers (hardgainers) it is a necessity to bulk hard then cut or they will never get anywhere. For people who hold natural bodyfat it is important to build a good muscle to bodyweight ratio.
This is because, as mentioned in my long earlier post, muscle needs a loit of energy to support itself. Thus, take 2 people, 1 is 16st lean muscle the other 16st pure fat. The muscle man will require (total geuss at numbers here) say 4000 calories in a day simply to support walking, talking, breathing etc The fatty might only require 2000 and any overhead will be absorbed by bodyweight anyway.
To use a less extreme and more relevent example, lets take SK07 and Myself. We are both, according to his posts, the same height and about the same weight. However, for arguments sake lets say that i have 20% more muscle that him. Very roughly, i will burn around 25% more calories in a normal inactive day, just sitting around. So say we follow the same 3000 calorie per day diet, his maintainance calories for the day could be 3500 whereas mine could be 4000. Thus every day i lose 1000 calories worth of fat (roughly 1/3 of a pound) whereas he only loses 500 calories of fat (1/6lb).
You see this IS important, cutting is SO much harder if you dont have a good foundation of muscle. However i digress, my original point was that it is not as impossible as people say to gain muscle and lose fat. If you are already pretty big a la Morba, then to do both is pretty much a waste of time, at best you'll tread water. But for you SK07 you should be able to improve the speed of your weight loss by actually gearing your diet towards muscle GAIN.
Simply take in lots of protein (lots more than a 'normal' person), train in the bulk rep range of 8-12. Keep trains to under 1.5hours. Have a powerful post-workout shake. Do morning cardio. Keep total daily calories around or under 3000. This will result in a progressive muscle growth period that slowly accelerates fat loss. As i said before this is commonly called a recomposition program, meaning you recompose you body:fat:muscle ratios. It will not give the muscle mass of a bulk and will not drop the fat like a cut. But it will build a foundation of muscle and metabolism that can then be exploited to either gain muscle or lose fat quickley in the future.
To answer your earlier Q, a good example of a daily recomp diet would be,
morning
as soon as awake
Blended shake = 50g whole oats, 50g whey protein (ON100% GS choc), 10g Maltodextrin, teaspoon olive oil, bannana. ~400 cals
11am
Standard whey shake with skim milk ~ 130cal
1pm
Scrambled egg on toast 4 eggs but only 2 yolk, light scraping olive spread ~ 450 cals
3pm
Whey shake ~ 130cals
dinner
16oz Rump steak (or chick breast) with vegetables no butter ~ 1000 cals
before bed
Whey shake ~ 130
Total cals ~ 2240
great for losing weight as a big guy yet taking in over 300g of protein while training right cant fail to gain you muscle.
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Alright, thanks for that. Some questions though.
I consume nowhere near 3000 calories a day. Your looking at 1000 or so. Mainly because I was trying to cut, lose weight really. A question though, from your example day that's consuming quite a bit of calories would this not gain weight at the same time? or would it actually help me gain muscle (with the training) and lose weight?
For morning you say just a shake, should I eat anything else in the morning? Can this Maltodextrin be picked up from body building stores etc? also does it matter what Whey you buy or is there certain Whey powders for certain diets etc?
Problem is I wouldn't know what food is ok and which food isn't I mean for 1pm say on another day would it be alright to have a chicken sanwich? on wholemeal bread which I usually eat.
Also would you need more info in order to give an exact accurate, what you have said is accurate yeah but do you need info on like what my current training program is? exact height + weight etc?
Cheers.
I consume nowhere near 3000 calories a day. Your looking at 1000 or so. Mainly because I was trying to cut, lose weight really. A question though, from your example day that's consuming quite a bit of calories would this not gain weight at the same time? or would it actually help me gain muscle (with the training) and lose weight?
For morning you say just a shake, should I eat anything else in the morning? Can this Maltodextrin be picked up from body building stores etc? also does it matter what Whey you buy or is there certain Whey powders for certain diets etc?
Problem is I wouldn't know what food is ok and which food isn't I mean for 1pm say on another day would it be alright to have a chicken sanwich? on wholemeal bread which I usually eat.
Also would you need more info in order to give an exact accurate, what you have said is accurate yeah but do you need info on like what my current training program is? exact height + weight etc?
Cheers.
SK07 said:
Its better that you work out a good program for yourself, based around your capabilities and needs. If you gave me your height, weight age and bodyfat i could give you a colorie baseline for reference.
If your taking in around 1000 cals per day and training you are practically starving yourself. This is counter productive as any 'bad' food you eat will be more readily stored as bodyfat and equally you will tire out when you train before you can do any good, this is one of the body's protections against starvation.
wholemeal chicken sandwich is fine, but dont underestimate the calories, assuming lean chicken and NO spread or mayo, you could be looking at up to 400calories in that alone, a shop bought one could be over 700!! a slice of wholemeal bread has 100 cals in dry.
Try and up your calories nearer to 2200 or thereabouts, will make a huge difference given some time, both to your muscle gains and your end size/shape. If you wanna post a 7 day meal plan ill look over it and critique, as will others.
On the supplements front, get a good multivitamin and double dose it, get extra vitamin C and D. Get cod liver oil and omega 3+6 and double dose those too. Also get some glucosamine sulphate when/if you decide to go heavy.
As for whey, get a decent brand named one for now, as it'll contain a few extras like lactase and other propreitory enzymes to aid absorption. I use Optimum Nutritions 100% Gold Standard Whey. Tastes great and has perfect ingredients. Its not the cheapes however will cost you about £30 per month. Dymatize Elite whey is good too and is a bit cheaper at £25 per month. You could try EAS 100% Whey too for that price. Steer clear of maximuscle in general, very expensive and very designer with almost no extra benefits.
If worried about the cost imagine each shake as being just as good nutritionally as a nice whole chicken breast with almost zero fat. you'll see that 3 chicken breasts a day would cost a lot more than £30 per month!
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Soldato
Building muscle on 2200kcals a day... you sure?UEX said:
Double dose a multi-vitamin? Why? Which one would you recommend for doing this?UEX said:
Extra Vitamin D on top of that? Double dose Cod Liver Oil? Omega 6? Why?
You do realize that following this is pretty much the worst thing you can do? Double dosing a multi-vit with synthetic variations of oily vits A, D & E should be done with your diet in mind (if at all!) You should take into account how much of these vits you get before you supplement more. You suggest double dosing, so I take it you get none of these from your diet already?
Why Extra Vitamin D?
Your body makes it's own when in the sun (admittedly we've not had much though lol )Cod Liver Oil contains loads of vitamin A & D aswell. Do you know that your body cannot get rid of excess oily vitamins and they're stored in the body? Gradually building up until they reach toxic levels? Especially A & D. For this reason I never recommend people take Cod Liver Oil at all. Also I went out of my way to try and source a multi-vitamin & mineral that contained as little synthetic vitamins A, D & E as possible. Even now I still only take half the recommended dose of that multi-vit on training days and I don't take any at all on rest days.
Why supplement with Omega-6? Possibly the worst thing a westerner can do. Our diets are mega rich in Omega-6 to the point our Omega 6 to 3 ratio has gone from an ideal 1:1 ratio to in some cases an extremely unhealthy 30:1 ratio. This is why Omega-3 supplementation is so highly regarded as a healthy option.
Didn't you just contradict yourself there?UEX said:
They're all the same. I'd challenge even a pro to notice any difference in performance and results from various brands.Do yourself a favour and goto a bulk online store like Myprotein. Their protein is absolutely top notch and very cheap. You think all these branded proteins are better then you're kidding yourself... and ripping yourself off imho
Why would you want zero fat?UEX said:
Sorry that just looks like a real rant at you but I don't think I agreed with a single thing you said lol (except the vit C) Hope you don't take it personal
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Associate
Gotta agree with Chong there though im certainly far from an expert. I think the demands you think extra muscle makes on the body in terms of calories is way off. You seem to be saying if there was 2 guys almost exactly the same, yet one was carrying a couple pounds more muscle, he automatically requires an extra 500+ calories a day. I think simply carrying more muscle DOES indeed require more calories to survive at maintenance but nowhere near as much as you let on.
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