Power to Mick Lynch

Greebo said:
Pretty sure I heard the Union say they would accept 7% and and the all the modernisation requested and voluntary redundancies to the 2000 needed. Problem is Network Rail have been told by the Govt they can't go above 3%. Stalemate
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Good for them if they can secure it.... As I said in my last post - I can see the Government not budging and trying to break the unions this Summer just for funsies which can only harm the public :(
 
Roar87 said:
Are you typing these posts while handing out flyers for the Labour party? The country was **** when they ran it. We had Austerity, also known as spending what you can afford, due to Labour. The current issues weren't caused by Boris Johnson having a glass of wine in his office, they were caused by unprecedented global issues like a pandemic and a war in Europe. Give it a rest with pushing Labour and stick to the strikes.
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So in your mind, criticizing the absolute shambles of a government we've had to endure over the last 12 years, culminating in the voting in (and supporting) of a dishonest, arrogant, lying PM who shows total disregard to the rules HE HIMSELF helped create regarding lockdown. But this goes FAR beyond Boris and his chuckle brothers... This nonsense started with Austerity, something which has shown NOT to work, we recovered slower than basically every other comparable EU country, it was nothing but an ideological wet-dream for the tories to cut public spending to the bone and farm money into the pockets of themselves and their supporters.

At no point was I "Pushing Labour", so I do find it very interesting that you attempt to create a pathetic strawman to deflect away from the valid criticisms of the most inept, corrupt government we have had in living memory! Perhaps you should stop "Pushing Tory" and brushing under the rug anything that does not suit your agenda?
 
Richie said:
If you're referring to the RMT rejecting modernisation - It's posted in the post above your:s right at the end.



SOURCE

If an employer's modernisation includes redundancies and changes to terms and conditions and the RMT don't want that then that's the same as rejecting the modernisation.

At no point did I say the videos you posted had anyone saying they rejected the modernisation as you inferred.

I had simply asked earlier in the thread if you think that, over and above the pay increase, should all other RMT demands to the deal be met i.e. the working terms and conditions, redundancies etc which you replied stating.you weren't fully aware of the finer detail and you'd need to see the details... I had, wrongly, assumed this meant you were going to go look.




On a side note about the strikes - I can't help but think that this may go on for some time (from other unions too) as the current government may have this opinion of trying to break the unions a'la Thatcher and the miners... They'll see it as a challenge and a game where the everyday citizens end up bearing the brunt from the political posturing.
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Nowhere does it say that the unions conditions were "no modernisation" . Nowhere.
+ "No modernisation" means none,nada,zero , not a wee bit, or certain facets, none.You said that, not me. I felt that would be a ludicrous position for a union to take. You've sought to prove your claim by spurious takes & flim flam. Your very creative paragraph stating something or other is "the same as rejecting modernisation" is actually mental.
You can't just make stuff up m8,I'll say it again, YOU said the unions conditions included "no modernisation" , this isn't true, the end.
 
Hopefully Johnson stands firm, and these already grossly overpaid militants engineer their own demise by promoting the rapid advancement of driverless trains.

If Tesla can make an effectively driverless car then I am darned sure something running on tracks is relatively easily automated.
 
Chris Wilson said:
Hopefully Johnson stands firm, and these already grossly overpaid militants engineer their own demise by promoting the rapid advancement of driverless trains.

If Tesla can make an effectively driverless car then I am darned sure something running on tracks is relatively easily automated.
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I’m not sure you are in possession of all the facts Chris but you go ahead :D
 
The only facts I need are knowing the Conservative government is in combat with a known militant trade union, and in any such battle I wish the government all power and success :)
 
It is crazy what train drivers get paid. You go forwards and stop. Tube drivers is even worse.

For a trucker to get the same with everything they have to deal with in a much harder job you would need to be pulling 60 hour weeks and sleeping in the cab to get 50k a year.

Why are trains not autonomous and why are train tickets not autonomous either?

If any industry is ripe for automation it is a mode of transport that runs on fixed rails!
 
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The drivers aren‘t striking, however what is it you understand about software automation and railways that bring you to that conclusion? It really isn’t that simple. Just have a think about it. Think about the trains, the stations, the signals, the loading of freight, all the human interfaces, breakdowns, electric and diesel, jumpers and then how do you do that whilst maintaining a functioning network? Doesn’t sound value for money to me.

Not a serious point, but I chuckle to think we are walking into a time where “you can say what you like about Johnson but at least he made the trains run on time” era :D
 
CapitalOne said:
The drivers aren‘t striking, however what is it you understand about software automation and railways that bring you to that conclusion? It really isn’t that simple. Just have a think about it. Think about the trains, the stations, the signals, the loading of freight, all the human interfaces, breakdowns, electric and diesel, jumpers and then how do you do that whilst maintaining a functioning network? Doesn’t sound value for money to me.

Not a serious point, but I chuckle to think we are walking into a time where “you can say what you like about Johnson but at least he made the trains run on time” era :D
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Apart from diesel and freight, aren't all those points already coped with by the Docklands Light Railway, which has been automated since 1987? I'm sure that software has advanced a little in the last 35 years as well.
 
Hades said:
Apart from diesel and freight, aren't all those points already coped with by the Docklands Light Railway, which has been automated since 1987? I'm sure that software has advanced a little in the last 35 years as well.
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You are correct, the main difference being that the DLR was designed with this in mind and is nano scale compared to the rest of the network. I did consider this and even discovered it only took 2 years to build but came to the conclusion a retro-fit is far more complex as none of the automation friendly features are built in from the start.

eta, quick google https://www.wired.co.uk/article/driverless-tube-trains-tfl-boris-johnson
 
Train Drivers pay has gone up to the level it is (£59k average) as a result of privatisation. They earned a comparative modest salary in the days of British Rail.

It takes around 12-18 months to earn their license and then another few years to learn how to drive all of their routes. That involves significant investment of time and resources from the company that trains them up. When the various companies were privatised some decided it would be more cost effective to poach other companies drivers with better pay. The companies that trained their own drivers then had to offer better terms to retain them.

Anyway 96% of drivers are in ASLEF not the RMT and aren't striking in this dispute. But that hasn't stopped the government quoting drivers pay and including it in the median pay figure they like to quote.
 
CapitalOne said:
The drivers aren‘t striking, however what is it you understand about software automation and railways that bring you to that conclusion? It really isn’t that simple. Just have a think about it. Think about the trains, the stations, the signals, the loading of freight, all the human interfaces, breakdowns, electric and diesel, jumpers and then how do you do that whilst maintaining a functioning network? Doesn’t sound value for money to me.

Not a serious point, but I chuckle to think we are walking into a time where “you can say what you like about Johnson but at least he made the trains run on time” era :D
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Lorry drivers have to do exactly the same but get paid nowhere near as well. With the added bonus of having to use a steering wheel, dealing with the general public who are poor at the best of times, cannot just "pull up" like a train and unload and risk destroying something every time they go into a tight yard because you have to be a contortionist just to get in.

Yet with all this added complexity there is massive drive to bring in automation. Why hasn't the same happened to the rail network?

These high wages for the drivers is the key to the problem because the drivers are paid so well it trickles down through the ranks and everyone else expects the same but they are all in their own little bubble and have no idea how people are working in different industries.

Have we not learnt from history how unions ruined our once massive and great car industry?
 
Anyone with a car license can do a 2 week course and hey presto they are a lorry driver. With trains it takes significantly longer and my post above explains why they earn so much.
 
JaWalks said:
Train Drivers pay has gone up to the level it is (£59k average) as a result of privatisation. They earned a comparative modest salary in the days of British Rail.

It takes around 12-18 months to earn their license and then another few years to learn how to drive all of their routes. That involves significant investment of time and resources from the company that trains them up. When the various companies were privatised some decided it would be more cost effective to poach other companies drivers with better pay. The companies that trained their own drivers then had to offer better terms to retain them.

Anyway 96% of drivers are in ASLEF not the RMT and aren't striking in this dispute. But that hasn't stopped the government quoting drivers pay and including it in the median pay figure they like to quote.
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Teachers spend several years at University and never get close to that 59k figure.
 
I am not a lorry driver so I have no idea, but at a guess for automation drivers for vehicles:

Road automation has been heavily invested in by private industry because there is money in it

The cost of operator per tonne of freight is far higher on the road so it makes financial sense

There is a lorry driver shortage

As for the salary question JaWalks puts forward a logical explanation of the economics.

In short, automating railways isn’t great value for money.
 
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