Power to Mick Lynch

[CapitalOne]

Teachers spend several years at University and never get close to that 59k figure.

That’s the value the government put on them though.

 

[adam cool dude]

Anyone with a car license can do a 2 week course and hey presto they are a lorry driver. With trains it takes significantly longer and my post above explains why they earn so much.

Yes you get your "licence" but it still takes a good couple of years to become proficient at the job. The current way they train drivers is pretty poor and antiquated. It is hurried along because we need 500,000 of them whereas train drivers is a lot smaller number.

The reverse procedure is a joke between a couple of cones. It takes at good six months before you can even call yourself half decent at reversing and then you can spend years learning routes and knowing where to go.

There is a massive difference between a fresh pass and someone who has been doing it a couple of years.

Just because the government allows you to drive a lorry so quickly doesn't make it easier to master. Far from it. Those first month's are a baptism of fire when out in the real world.

 

[Freakbro]

There is a massive difference between a fresh pass and someone who has been doing it a couple of years.

How is that different to any training/job?

 

[Semple]

So, devils advocate here as I'm on the fence about the demands and strikes.

Let's say they get their 7% that they are asking for... Do we give teachers the 10% they want and nurses the 15% they are asking for?

This is the problem, having such increases across the whole public sector is likely to be unaffordable, and the only way it'll be funded is by taking more from the taxpayer - of which more than three-quarters are private workers, and will certainly not see their pay increase anywhere near those amounts.

They have been offered 2% , 3% with strings, its derisory given inflation is circa 10%, and remember it's the utter goons running everything who have got us here.
Where are all the protesting voices when MPs get massive increases and milk expenses, at least these workers are a net gain to the country.

No one will disagree that it's the fault of our useless government that we're now in this mess. But the question has to be asked how these huge pay increase would realistically be funded.

I think they mentioned railway passenger numbers are down 20% since the pandemic - so that probably correlates to a 20% drop in revenue. With a number of people now WFH it's unlikely these numbers will ever get back to pre-covid times. If TOCs etc are expected to increase pay significantly then this will undoubtedly force ticket prices to go higher. It's already typically more expensive to travel by train than by car - despite years ago claiming that it was more economical/cheaper to travel by train. This will just push more customers away from using the trains as they become unaffordable, and eventually leading to more redundancies as the TOCs can't afford the salaries of their workforce.

Yes.

We're "Building back better", and creating a "High skill, high wage economy". You can only do that with real world pay rises surely?

We all know that was guff spouted by the PM. But again as per my previous comment - how do we realistically afford these substantial pay increases.

 

[SPG]

The only facts I need are knowing the Conservative government is in combat with a known militant trade union, and in any such battle I wish the government all power and success

I hope the RMT win, train companies have been suckling from the teat of the public and not paying the workers fairly. I hope this is the start and we bring this government and country to its knees on fair pay for all rather than the city toffs.

 

[Freakbro]

This is the problem, having such increases across the whole public sector is likely to be unaffordable, and the only way it'll be funded is by taking more from the taxpayer - of which more than three-quarters are private workers, and will certainly not see their pay increase anywhere near those amounts.

Avg private sector pay rises are currently (and have been for months) 8% compared to the public sectors 1.5% Seems a bit mealy mouthed for all the private sector workers to be berating the public sector for wanting similar to what they are getting.

 

[Semple]

Except that's the bare minimum of what they do, they're also fairly critical to the safe running of the trains, have to be trained in safety on the rail network, be able to assist in an emergency, act to some degree as security and a 101 other things.

You might as well say that a flight attendant is just a trolly pusher, and ignore their importance in the safe operation of aircraft, and the safety of passengers when things go wrong (both flight attendants and "ticket inspectors" can/do have to be able to make the decision to evacuate their respective modes of transport and get the passengers to safety in what can be extremely dangerous situations).

That's a fair comment, so why are flight attendants only paid an average of £20,476, significantly lower than what would be perceived to be an equivalent role in the rail industry.

 

[Hades]

You are correct, the main difference being that the DLR was designed with this in mind and is nano scale compared to the rest of the network. I did consider this and even discovered it only took 2 years to build but came to the conclusion a retro-fit is far more complex as none of the automation friendly features are built in from the start.

eta, quick google https://www.wired.co.uk/article/driverless-tube-trains-tfl-boris-johnson

Yes I see the argument of complexity when automation is raised. But (admittedly not being a train expert) I simply can't see how we aren't able to use modern technology to overcome what should be relatively straightforward problems. They are trains, on tracks, going in a known direction and speed, and the network already knows where every train is.

I think the reasons for not introducing it are cost and the instant strikes they would cause. The unions would strike as soon as they get a whiff of it and in the short term it is cheaper to pay a driver than incur a considerable automation cost.

In my opinion we would have been better to have spent the HS2 and Croasrail budgets on automating the existing networks. It is the right thing to do in the long term.

 

[CapitalOne]

That's a fair comment, so why are flight attendants only paid an average of £20,476, significantly lower than what would be perceived to be an equivalent role in the rail industry.

Because of supply and demand

 

[CapitalOne]

Yes I see the argument of complexity when automation is raised. But (admittedly not being a train expert) I simply can't see how we aren't able to use modern technology to overcome what should be relatively straightforward problems. They are trains, on tracks, going in a known direction and speed, and the network already knows where every train is.

I think the reasons for not introducing it are cost and the instant strikes they would cause. The unions would strike as soon as they get a whiff of it and in the short term it is cheaper to pay a driver than incur a considerable automation cost.

In my opinion we would have been better to have spent the HS2 and Croasrail budgets on automating the existing networks. It is the right thing to do in the long term.

Agree on all points really apart from the first because I really don’t think it’s that easy however in the big scheme of things automating railways like ours isn’t worth the investment, especially not now.

 

[Jono8]

They get paid too much in comparison to other critical roles.

I'd far rather see teachers and NHS staff get paid what they are getting, rather than have train drivers pay increase even more.

 

[adam cool dude]

How is that different to any training/job?

Normally most jobs have you fully trained before they let you out on your own. Not the case in haulage . Before the driver shortage you needed two years experience and over 25 before they would even take you on in most companies. Now the yard is full of dented trucks and broken property .

 

[Semple]

Passed them on. Materials have gone up by 20% to 40% as well. No way can we absorb all the costs. In our industry inflation is running closer to 25%, not 11%.

This is more than likely the same thing to happen in rail. Teaching and NHS are different because they don't typically generate revenue.

 

[Richie]

Avg private sector pay rises are currently (and have been for months) 8% compared to the public sectors 1.5% Seems a bit mealy mouthed for all the private sector workers to be berating the public sector for wanting similar to what they are getting.

That is a huge gulf however it's not always the case with public sector increases out-performing private sector at times:

According to the ONS, average earnings in 2020-21 rose:

5.6% in the public sector
4.6% in the private sector.

Also, pay is only one side of things when comparing monetary compensation. Pensions and job security tend to be better in the Public Sector compared to Private Sector:

Of course, the attractiveness of a job is not just about the amount you are paid.

This analysis excludes pension provision, which tends to be considerably better in the public sector.

SOURCE.


.

 

[newbiejim]

We all know that was guff spouted by the PM. But again as per my previous comment - how do we realistically afford these substantial pay increases.

Thing is, its not really pay increases is it? , one poster said he read that the union would accept 7%, that's a pay cut. Why are you not asking "How can we ensure these workers don't have their wages cut unfairly?"

 

[CapitalOne]

They get paid too much in comparison to other critical roles.

I'd far rather see teachers and NHS staff get paid what they are getting, rather than have train drivers pay increase even more.

I don't think anyone will disagree, however I don't think those sums would add up.

 

[Devilman]

Lorry drivers have to do exactly the same but get paid nowhere near as well. With the added bonus of having to use a steering wheel, dealing with the general public who are poor at the best of times, cannot just "pull up" like a train and unload and risk destroying something every time they go into a tight yard because you have to be a contortionist just to get in.

Yet with all this added complexity there is massive drive to bring in automation. Why hasn't the same happened to the rail network?

These high wages for the drivers is the key to the problem because the drivers are paid so well it trickles down through the ranks and everyone else expects the same but they are all in their own little bubble and have no idea how people are working in different industries.

Have we not learnt from history how unions ruined our once massive and great car industry?

Unions did not destroy our "once massive and great car industry", the fact we made **** cars destroyed our car industry. Once cheap reliable Japanese cars became available over here, the trash we were trying to peddle out (Austin Allegro etc..) were shown to be the garbage they always had been.

 

[Semple]

Avg private sector pay rises are currently (and have been for months) 8% compared to the public sectors 1.5% Seems a bit mealy mouthed for all the private sector workers to be berating the public sector for wanting similar to what they are getting.

Whilst I've not fully read into these 8% increases, it does seem to mention that these are most likely due to bonuses - which tend to be one-off payments as opposed to a permanent wage increase.

That seems to be quite a popular approach for companies - was it just yesterday that Rolls-Royce were giving their staff a 2k "cost of living" bonus.

 

[Semple]

Because of supply and demand

There seems to be a pretty heavy demand for flights right now, a lot of which are being cancelled due to staff shortages.

 

[Semple]

Thing is, its not really pay increases is it? , one poster said he read that the union would accept 7%, that's a pay cut. Why are you not asking "How can we ensure these workers don't have their wages cut unfairly?"

Why should Rail workers be so special? Anyone who's not had an 11% pay rise this year has essentially had a pay cut - which also includes private sector who are supposedly sat on 8% increase.

If they bump everyone's pay up 11%, we'll be in the exact same position now, as things like food, materials, services, rents go up to accommodate the increased costs of the workforce.