Project: Two storey/part single storey side and rear extensions

[kai]

So Christmas deadline not met as predicted. Perhaps - and I'm just trying to take something positive here - the quality of workmanship will improve and be smoother when they are not time pressured in the new year?
It honestly comes across like a bunch of cowboys are chopping up your beloved family home. Is there no way to abort and get someone else?

To be fair, the overall quality of workmanship has been good, but the project has suffered from being done out of order and poorly managed. The developer has relied heavily on third-party companies to complete various elements, and unfortunately, painting and plumbing have been significant areas of concern.

In fact, we made the decision to ask the painter to leave this week and not return due to the abysmal quality of his work. The developer has assured us that a new painter will be brought in after the New Year. Several contractors have informed us that the individual he plans to bring in is excellent, albeit expensive. It seems the initial painter was brought in for cost reasons, hence the dissatisfaction with the quality of the work.

This was the final staw; when we asked him to leave. New plaster.

I would say reading this line from your quote "2 x new bathroom suites (en-suite) and main. Supply & Fitting (mid-level pricing) a. Tiled and finished (floor to ceiling) " that the price included everything in the bathroom.
As others have said that is simply not enough unless you go the DIY route and choose cheaper products.
Did you choose the tiles and fittings in the bathroom and was any mention made of cost implications in those decisions.

We were initially inclined towards using FIBO waterproof boards instead of tiles. However, the developer suggested finding something similar in tile form, assuring us that it would be more convenient for everyone as he had a tiler who could work over the weekend to get it completed. We agreed, especially since he provided a sample and committed to using this tile over our preferred board, as indicated in the quote that included tiles.

Regarding fittings, we provided pictures of styles we liked and communicated our preferences based on fittings from other houses completed and sourced by the developer. Unfortunately, it seems that there has been mismanagement, leading to attempts to cut costs on his part.

 

[kai]

We are honestly at breaking point; today the plumber who we is unreliable has caused several major leaks has done something beyond belief. Both my architect and QS have not seen anything like this in the trade before. My wife is completely distraught; tomorrow with the developer should be fun.

Two issues with the following photo

1. A towel rad you are unable to use; its blocked by the bath. I am not sure, but i also think its the wrong pipe work.
2. A freestanding tap that does not reach the bath (we can't move the bath we need it flush to the tiles for the room)

Both need fairly large compoents of work; tiles off the wall and flooring to come up back to this point as it's been drilled in

Oh and the pipework under the stairs to fix the head-height issue. However, we have just been told by our QS this needs to be checked by building control and might not even pass. I also do not want an ugly bulk-head. the pipes should have been recessed.

 

[kai]

Jesus wept. How and why did the plumber do any of those?

Was the bath already in situ when he fitted the towel rail? Was it not realised the towel rail would be there before the tiling was done? The pipe work for the towel rail looks awful. The tap situation is comical. He wants shooting.

Who sourced the plumber? Did he arrive on a horse?

Really feel sorry for you. I saw your budget was £160K. Minus the 10K you said is left to pay, you must be at your wits end.

What's the honest opinion or your QS friend? Do you have any other funds to sack the current tradesman and get new ones in to sort everything?

No. It was an empty room; he had pipes ready for the towel radiator so was fully aware the location of both bath and rad. We even provided a diagram to follow.

I’ve now got to go tell them I’m not accepting the rad position, the thermostat being horizontal and well they really can’t argue about the tap not reaching. It just screams amateur.

We have not told the developer we are going to have it professionally snagged; but I’m not sure if it’s worth saying something now as the penny might drop it’s not going fly. When I’ve queried items before I’ve been told “am I builder, NO, I don’t tell you how to do your IT job, so **** ***”

I’m also thinking of starting to just film our interactions and put a camera in his face. He might walk though!

 

[kai]

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[kai]

Today was quite eventful. I began the morning by calling the developer to express my dissatisfaction with the situation – it's challenging to use the bath suite when the tap can't reach the bath, and placing a towel on the radiator is problematic. These are basic necessities!

In response, he immediately became defensive, blaming my wife and me for being difficult customers. He insisted that he had repeatedly warned us that the chosen style bath (he picked the bath mind) wouldn't work, suggesting we should have opted for a shower to fit the en-suite (this was news to us). Tensions rose, and he claimed to be outside our house, urging us to speak face to face.

Feeling angry and upset, I promptly called the QS to pop round and join the conversation as an independent witness. To cut a long story short, the developer attempted to bully his way out of the situation but soon realized my experienced QS wasn't easily deceived. Backtracks ensued, and despite growing irritation, my QS controlled the conversation, securing a commitment to specific completion dates in January (though we're skeptical about their actual realization).

The developer labeled us problematic clients, accused us of being compulsive liars, and interfered in matters beyond our understanding, such as our kitchen order with Howdens (presumably to conceal the final price). Despite the accusations, I remained composed, letting my QS handle the situation and occasionally laughing at the developer's lies.

He was constantly bringing up money and how much we are over. It’s all itemised and clearly hasn’t read the quote - he signed.
how many extra’s we have had. All of which are contained with the quote. He has an answer for everything !

Fifteen minutes later, after the meeting a call followed, with the developer offering profuse apologies and expressing remorse for our inconvenience, acknowledging that we won't be in for Christmas. It seemed the realization dawned that bullying tactics wouldn't work on us, as reportedly experienced with his other clients.

Upon my return tonight, the entire site had been cleaned, things left in order, and protective matting laid down for the first time in eight months. While uncertain how long this improvement will last, the ultimate goal is progress toward completion.

 

[kai]

Either that or his multiple personalities are finally kicking in!

Hopefully he's going to keep his head out his arse for the rest of the project and it's smooth sailing from now on

It’s a horrible thing to say; but his men call him “the bipolar boss”.

It’s just we never know what developer we get from day to day and feel like we are walking on egg shells in our own home

As I’ve said a few times now; this is the most stressful, toughest thing we have ever ever done!

 

[kai]

Bloody hell.

Do you have somewhere to stay?

We do; we are very fortunate to be staying at a freinds home within 200 yards (who is currently away).

Just opened this thread as it's been popping up a bit recently (more so than over the last year at least) and oh boy, I wish I hadn't! Hopefully things go better with the project here on out, they can't get much worse at least!

Welcome to the madness.


As an update, we decided to stay away from the house during the Christmas period to take a break and not dwell on the ongoing project, which has been quite overwhelming. However, when I went in on Christmas day to retrieve some stored presents, I noticed a leak in the kitchen. Consequently, both my wife and I found ourselves on the ladder on Boxing Day, attempting to attach a tarpaulin. It appears that the lead flashing was installed incorrectly, and the new glass roof installed last week is also leaking . We promptly informed the developer via SMS on the 27th , and he was understanding. He sent someone today to assess the situation and assured us that the necessary repairs will commence next week.

On a separate note, our boiler, which is only 9 years old, has been constantly breaking down (with over £1,000 spent on parts during this timeframe, lucky we have boiler cover). Despite British Gas visiting seven times in the last three weeks, it continues to malfunction. Being a Ferroli, it is temperamental at best. Consequently, the house has been without heating. Today, we made the decision to purchase a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 4000 30kw for £2,700—a purchase we could have done without.

New downstairs floor starting to go down; over the underfloor retrofit.

Our utility room, which was initially intended to be a standard part of the project, ended up being provided to us at no cost. Howden's made significant errors, leading to numerous inconveniences, and as a gesture to make amends, they gave us the utility room for free. Including the heat pump dryer.

New Roof Light.

The leak is clearly tracking under the flashings

On a more postive note; i finally got round to building our new bed yesterday and hanging the light.

Plus what i feel will be my favorite room! a bed with a view (we also aligned the bath tub; so it's directly looking out as well from here)

 

[kai]

Nightmare about that leak but that bedroom view looks great! I'm sure it'll be great in the end but like a lot of these projects the journey isn't one you want to repeat.


That left hand side of your utility what's going there? First thoughts are looks like an outside tap/ plumbing looks naff and not ideal for a dishwasher/washing unit either as will push them further forward into the room.

Washing machine. It’s a non integrated appliance but it’s been correctly plumbed in now. That photo was taken before as they needed a tap to get water for cement, etc and was a temporary solution.

 

[kai]

Nice.
How have you found the quality of the Howdens kitchen?

So far it “looks” pretty good. The true test will be daily use. We had a lot of extra’s you can’t see in the picture like a huge larder with suicide doors and oak liners and wings. Hot water tap etc. I’ll take more pictures when the kitchen is finished.

We had a bad experience with the delivery and many items being damaged or missing. I think we ended up with 9 separate deliveries not including receiving random orders for other customers (like wardrobes). The sales rep was excellent; and was just as frustrated as us with all the issues.

We had the utility room free the microwave (£700) free as it was scratched and large amounts of discount overall (40-60% on each unit). I think it’s 33 cupboards in total. It come to £14,400 without worktops. If we hadn’t of spoken up and caught the developer out we would have had “customer pricing”. This was over £20k just for the kitchen alone.


All appliances are AEG including a large wine fridge, warming draws and an integrated ducting fan induction hob

 

[kai]

Why did you get a WB, should have gone for a Viesseman or maybe a valiant ATAG or Intergas.

Also, you won't need 30kW unless you're heating a solid walled 500m2 grade 2 uninsulated mansion. Any installer should have done some heat loss calcs, or do some yourself. The heat geek heat loss estimator is surprisingly accurate.

Also, any boiler you put in should have an external temp sensor and be run off weather compensation. Hive/Nest etc should be thrown in the bin.

House is coming in nicely though, it's good to see it looking like a home.

I was actually a little concerned the WB 30kW version would not be enough. It’s a 4 bed with 2 bathrooms; 12 radiators and around 80 -100 sqm of underfloor.

The central heating output on the boiler is 24 kW and a 30 kW hot water output. The hot water /min rate is also 12.3 flow rate.

Do you feel this will be more than enough?

WB kept being recommended as a reliable brand; 10 -year warranty and we have several accredited installers locally. In the end we went with BOXT.

 

[kai]

It does feel like some critical components haven't been properly thought through! I'd have expected an unvented cylinder, provision for solar etc., zoning for the underfloor. Still, what an epic space it'll be afterwards.

We did not feel a need for an unvented cylinder, was needed. I know there is a a number of factors that impact pressure but it’s an area with 15-20 houses; demand is low in the area and pressure has always been excellent.

To add our boiler is in our attic. We do not have the space for this.

As for zoning the UFH has been split into 3 zones. Kitchen, living and utility I believe there will be two Wi-Fi thermostats in each area. I will take a photo of the manifold when next at the house.

As for solar panels; this is a future project. At the moment more is going out than coming in.

The house is only 9 years old and the insulation is always been good. I appreciate we have added a lot of glass but we when we brought down the ceilings during the work we found no insulation in the first floor ceilings. As such we have added and I've doubled down insulation in the loft and added A rated glass to the big sliders (bedroom and kitchen).

 

[kai]

It does feel like some critical components haven't been properly thought through! I'd have expected an unvented cylinder, provision for solar etc., zoning for the underfloor. Still, what an epic space it'll be afterwards.

Manifold; with the 3 zones. Not been fitted yet only pressure tested. The thermostats are going back and being swapped for Wi-Fi

 

[kai]

Did you self install the UFH?
Is it difficult?

No; left it to the developer. Does it look relatively easy, yes. However, I would not even contemplate doing this myself.

This product if installed correctly will be down for a very long time (pipe lifespan is 50+ years). It’s important its done correctly. If anything goes wrong its a huge upheaval to rectify as floors, skirtings etc have to come up. Even isolation can be difficult without expert help.

The manifold side also needs an understanding of plumbing and electrical knowledge.

With a trade you at least get assurance and a warranty. If done correctly very little can go wrong and it “just works”.

The install cost is expensive, but its something that needs to be done correctly (and first time).

 

[kai]

How are things progressing now @kai ?

SLOW

We currently have two carpenters on-site each day, both nice guys but we need plumbers and brick-layers. There are some key areas that still need attention (off the top of my head).

1. Brickwork: The exterior brickwork remains incomplete. Plus we still have a full 3.5 lintel to be bricked (two sides)
2. Flat Roof: A tarp is in place to prevent leaks, but the lead and trays need to be redone on the flat roof for a more permanent solution.
3. Guttering: All guttering work is pending. It's on but not angled or put on correctly yet.
4. Windows: The windows are still on packers, and yet to be sealed and finished
5. Bathroom 1: The taps in the first bathroom still do not reach the bath, requiring adjustments and rad need moving
6. Bathroom 2: The second bathroom has not been started or the old ripped out.
7. Staircase: Pipes need to been boxed in on landing, and new pipes are running above head heigh to change over stairscase (big job)
8. Underfloor Heating: Connections are yet to be made, and electrical work for underfloor heating is pending. Only pressure tested
9. Painting: New painter is arriving on the 15th. We kicked out the last trade for poor workmanship. I am told by the trades here, the new guy is excellent and should have been here in the first place (developer tried to save money).

New brick layers are suppose to be here today completing all the outstanding jobs (not turned up yet - suprise). They also have to run a pillar or redo the brickwork on the connection of the old house to new as its well shocking. The previous brick layers said there is a "pig" in the brickwork. Either way, i am not accepting that as a finish and the developer has agreed its v. poor.

As you can also see the issues with the guttering, lead etc that need to be corrected.

 

[kai]

Yesterday, there was a highly confrontational incident involving the developer. He agressively reqacted expressing frustration and an inability to meet the deadline of January 19, 2024. In his outburst, he began placing blame on us, the homeowners, for the project delays. He cited various reasons, including issues with the tap installation for picking a free-standing bath (the bath tap does not meet the bath), which he claimed caused delays, and problems with our boiler that resulted in a significant leak, damaging an bringing down an entire ceiling (British Gas confirmed it was not our boiler but the poor workmanship of removing the old pipes and capping from the old house). This was evident as the leak was nowhere near the boiler.

Despite causing these setbacks, he refused to acknowledge his role in them.

The situation escalated when I approached one of the self-employed carpenters, who is not directly employed by the developer, and inquired about the possibility of them doing extra work outside of regular hours. This request pertained to minor tasks that wouldn't interfere with the developer's schedule. The developer became furious upon discovering some wall panels had been installed over the weekend, even though I had paid the carpenters for the additional work. This led to a VERY heated confrontation in the street, with the developer claiming ownership of the carpenters and exhibiting aggressive behavior, clenching his fist in my face and pointing at me within nose distance. From what we can gather he does this with other clients (especially women, and they back down). I simply' just laugh in his face and told him his bully tactics are not going to work.

I am not to ask them to do any work until after he has finished. Monday, I think he is going have a heart-attack , because on the weekend they are building boxing seats it is my house and what I have done is my choice.

The developer is pressuring me for a physical confrontation, even though he is in his 60s, and I am in my 30s. My primary concern is getting the outstanding work completed, especially crucial elements necessary for the safety of our 2-year-old child. This includes installing a secure front door, as the current OSB setup is insufficient. Returning to the house without addressing these fundamental issues would also jeopardise my home insurance, as the building is not currently secure.

On the plus side; the wall panel looks great

 

[kai]

It's a shame you haven't been recording your interactions with this bullyboy old fogy, it would make for great youtube content.



Keep it this way. As tempting as it would be to floor this muppet keep the moral high ground that you're on. After the project is done give him a sandwich with crushed viagra in it and once he's eaten tell him to go **** himself. It might possibly be the best erection he's built in years.

Is it not illegal to record conversations without the permission of the other attendees ?



This evening's conversation was quite amusing. Howden’s called to inquire about the scratched oven, as they had provided a replacement. Keep in mind that this oven is valued at £850. They were chasing us because we were supposed to place the lightly scratched oven, get the new one fitted, and then return the scratched one to the delivery guys. This incident occurred about two months ago.

I explained that the developer had taken the oven, loaded it onto the back of his van, and it was gone. I would likely have CCTV footage capturing him leaving with it. Howden’s contacted him, and initially, he tried to deny it. As the conversation progressed, it became clear that we had informed Howden’s about having proof that the oven was not in our possession. He eventually admitted to using the oven on another job and expected it for "free" due to the hassle he experienced with our kitchen. It's important to note that the developer did not arrange or handle anything other than us using his account.

 

[kai]

I'd hand him a list of anger management courses along with the final payment

It will go down like a lead balloon but I am (unless things change) unlikely to pay the final bill

We have more than enough evidence and documenation whereby he has not met the conditions of the quote. For example 3 windows in the property are significantly smaller than the architectural plan; he had an excuse why for each one. Damage to property by leaving our house exposed to the elements for months with no roof or securing access etc.

 

[kai]

Good, he deserves as little money as you can now get away with based on his attitude if nothing else.

We are currently facing an issue with several outstanding physical items, each of significant value, not accounting for additional fitting costs. Some examples include:

• Julet Balcony (£1,200)
• Bathroom (£4-6k)
• Glass balustrade (£500-700)
• Two Composite doors (£1250 each)

These figures do not encompass all pending tasks, such as completing brickwork, addressing lead work and trays that need redoing, and painting the entire house from top to bottom.

Regarding costs, we aim to have as much work completed by the developer as possible. Currently, we are trying to avoid costing discussions, as he is still on-site carrying out works (we have paid him like 95% anyway). This approach is intended to narrow the gap between what has been paid and what he believes he is owed, in case he decides to walk away from the project.

However, feedback from various trades indicates that he is very unlikely to walk. Instead, he tends to push clients to terminate the contract, allowing him to avoid being perceived as breaching his contractual obligations

Sorry this is dragging on, but it would seem that you’re doing closer. Keep the numbers of the decent trades for sure! The pictures are looking really great.

Are they on websites like mybuilder and check a trade? They’re usually quite helpful in these situations. Had ours come back quite apologetic (initially) when we had him removed from mybuilder.com. I dread to think how he had left other clients!

Once again, the developer has postponed the completion date. The revised practical completion date for interior work is set for the 26th. My wife and I are steadfast in our decision not to relocate our 2-year-old to what essentially remains a construction site, especially without essential items like a secure door, staircase rail/balustrade, and even a Juliet balcony.

Yesterday, the developer issued an apology, acknowledging that he is currently under a great deal of stress because he is moving home and regrettably taking it out on clients. Despite his admission, he seemed to be in a relatively good mood during our interaction. However, he noticed my wife taking notes, a practice she maintains in every meeting. What caught his attention was her use of shorthand, a skill she developed as a former journalist for a major newspaper and media outlet.
Upon his inquiry, my wife clarified her background in journalism, hoping that the recognition of her media connections might prompt a positive change in the working relationship. It remains to be seen or the penny has not dropped yet.

The developer is not listed on any website or trade review platform, which poses its own challenges. However, this absence from public platforms can work to our advantage when we eventually leave reviews. Our review will likely stand out at the top of the list, providing an impactful platform to share our experiences and concerns

I'm about to start a new build with limited budget/experience and reading through your whole thread about the problems you've encountered with various trades is starting to give me nightmares . Hope it all works out well for you in the end, it's starting to look really nice

I highly recommend conducting thorough due diligence before engaging with any developer. Despite our efforts to research and even consult with a previous client, our experience has been far from satisfactory. It's crucial to go beyond surface-level inquiries and ensure that the developer possesses accredited certifications from reputable organisations such as Master Builders.

While our experience has been challenging, it's important to note that the majority of the trades involved in the project have been good. Our cautionary tale emphasises the significance of scrutinising a developer's credentials and track record, even when recommendations seem positive. Don't let our unfortunate experience put you off , but rather let it serve as a reminder to assess all aspects before entering into any agreement.

I would also recommend a QS and architect meet with your developer before signing anything (check the relationship) and see if the QS or architect get any bad vibes.




As a side note, this seemingly basic photo represents a significant milestone. The numerous arguments (actual physical and verbal abuse) and negotiations required to reach this point are quite astonishing and might be hard to believe. Despite its apparent simplicity, the journey to achieving this visual outcome has been anything but straightforward.

A bath tap that goes into the bath
A towel radaitor up high enough you can actually use (yet to be plummed)

 

[kai]

Haha oh god imagine plastic push fit there.

Don't mention pushfit here after yesterday. The plumber yesterday put an outside tap on as a hobble. I knew i should have asked someone competent as he has been a nightmare.

This is a main wall' that you will see and wanted £60, HA. I now have to pay someone to do a proper job and bury the cable in the wall.

 

[kai]

Wow that is ermmmm different lets say.
Why is the skirting jutting out. Is that where the pipes are coming out the floor.

Yes. The skirting jutting out was done by the carpenter to cater for the pipe' but he expected like me for the pipe to be buried. I have the plumber coming back this week to bury that pipe in the wall as i said it was unacceptable.

At this point I think the builder would be fare to fit a bit of downpipe or guttering

The same plumber moved our freestanding tap in the bathroom to make it actually you know! reach the bath; with a promise of no holes - I present NO HOLES!!!

I assume they will need to use a wax stick because it would be a huge job to pull the floor/tiles up.

As for the stairs; the pipework was the best of a bad situation. The carpenter spent yesterday boxing in the pipework trying to make it look at neat as possible.

I am hopeful that the overall look will greatly improve once the painting is completed and the staircase glass is fitted.

Yesterday, I invested £500 to have the house professionally snagged upon completion. While this may seem like a significant expense, the decision was made with the potential to save a considerable amount in the long run. Now, the challenge is securing a date from the developer for this snagging procedure. This crucial step is, in essence, a million-dollar question, as it will significantly impact the overall timeline and quality assurance of the project.