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Raptor Lake Leaks + Intel 4 developments

People will buy whatever CPU is cheapest and gives the best single core performance (unless they already have a LGA1700 board).

Multicore performance is what Intel focuses when they are struggling to improve IPC (which would improve overall ST or MT performance anyway).

They are doing this more with the 13th gen, as it looks like models without E-cores will be only at the very low end.

Next time around (with Meteor Lake), Intel will actually be able to improve IPC and reduce power consumption (multithreaded gains from E-cores will simply be a bonus to performance).
 
g67575 said:
People will buy whatever CPU is cheapest and gives the best single core performance (unless they already have a LGA1700 board).

Multicore performance is what Intel focuses when they are struggling to improve IPC (which would improve overall ST or MT performance anyway).

They are doing this more with the 13th gen, as it looks like models without E-cores will be only at the very low end.

Next time around (with Meteor Lake), Intel will actually be able to improve IPC and reduce power consumption (multithreaded gains from E-cores will simply be a bonus to performance).
Click to expand...
Intels single core performance on ADL was already good and RPL will increase this, zen 4 is only bridging this gap. Also it's the platform costs that need to be taken into account and this time Intel will have the advantage despite the increased CPU costs.
 
Joxeon said:
The boards and ram are cheaper though and also MT performance on RPL is much higher than what AMD are offering especially lower down the stack, the 13600k for instance is looking like it will offer over 60% more MT performance than a 7600X but cost 16% more.
Click to expand...
AMD boards starting at £150 is cheap. O have seen nothing yet to show me the top end Intel SKU's will beat out the top end AMD's although granted they will both be close in ST and MT. Also the 3D variant s will release and promise is 10-15% more performance.

Then when all teh Intel lads and lass's are buying new boards for the Intel 14th gen teh Reds will be just dropping in Zen 5 and i fdoubt very much assuming you already have DDR5 that you will get a 14900K and mobo for less then a 8950X, in fact i would not be surprised if the 8950X was cheaper on its own then the 14900K (plus rumour has it all zen 5 models get double the cores)
 
Joxeon said:
Also it's the platform costs that need to be taken into account and this time Intel will have the advantage
Click to expand...
:cry: really not. If you buy into Raptor Lake now then you have to buy a new board for your next CPU. If you also decide to go DDR4 now then you need new RAM next time as well. If you buy into Ryzen 7000 now then you have 3 years at least of CPU support and RAM you can carry over.

At a minimum the "OMG AMD are taking the **** with AM5" investment you lot are crying about will be equal over its life to buying at least 2 new Intel platforms.

But then such obvious logic is alien to a lot of people.
 
Joxeon said:
Intels single core performance on ADL was already good and RPL will increase this, zen 4 is only bridging this gap. Also it's the platform costs that need to be taken into account and this time Intel will have the advantage despite the increased CPU costs.
Click to expand...
Not sure. It does look like the Z790 boards are limited to ~6800 MT/s with a single module, 6400 MT/s with 2 modules. At least according to this rumour:
videocardz.com

Intel Z790 motherboards listed with support for DDR5-6800 and DDR4-5333 memory - VideoCardz.com

Intel Z790 motherboards support up to DDR5-6800 memory Here are some first details on Intel Z790 memory support. We received documents for the upcoming MSI Z790 motherboard series, including their specifications. The documents confirm that these motherboards will support JEDEC DDR5-5600 specs...
videocardz.com videocardz.com

This certainly isn't a bad spec, should be plenty for most. But, it looks like it will be possible to use higher frequency modules (>6000 MT/s) on AM5 boards releasing this year, in the future.
 
I don't think the "supported" spec matters for either brand, people will push past it anyway, people have already gotten ddr5 to 8000mt/s on alder lake
 
Grim5 said:
I don't think the "supported" spec matters for either brand, people will push past it anyway, people have already gotten ddr5 to 8000mt/s on alder lake
Click to expand...
Don't you have to drop down the imc to 'gear 4' on the 12th gen though, at some point?

RAM speed support matters, because you want it to be stable and perform well.

It doesn't seem a stretch to think that 7000 MT/s modules will be available to buy within the next 3-6 months, considering that 6600 MT/s modules run at 1.4v.
 
I've been looking at the top spec modules to date on DDR5 just now. My impression is that Samsung is probably the furthest ahead with DDR5, with 7200 MT/s 512GB modules possible (for data centres etc), and this was back in August 2021. The most impressive thing is, this could be achieved with just 1.1v!

Spec here:

eUMDaTfecBDb9J4bQiHii3-970-80.jpg.webp


Article here:
www.tomshardware.com

Samsung Reveals DDR5-7200 512GB RAM

The new era for RAM
www.tomshardware.com www.tomshardware.com

Shows that there's still plenty of room for DDR5 to develop, but it makes me wonder why we haven't seen voltages come down on consumer DDR5 modules? With lower voltages possible, there should be no need to resort to costly cooling solutions for RAM modules...
 
Waiting for xmp bins is not needed. Firstly, the higher the bins, the looser the timings so that’s a path down diminishing returns. You then have another issue that buying a high xmp bin and leaving voltages on auto will boost them through the roof. No board manufacturer cares if you degrade your IMC. Their goal is get it to train and boot so you don’t call support.

Just like DDR4, ram itself is IC and PCB dependent. On top of that, DDR5 brings another variable, PMIC, due to the voltage controller now being on the sticks. So now you need to be aware of 3 variables which won’t be advertised on the box.

The next variable is your cpu and board. Not all cpu and boards will do the same tune. Silicon lottery exists on IMC’s as well. Boards of the same model and FW generally peak and behave the same though.

Back to the xmp lack of relevance. On ddr4, the c14-14-14 3200mhz bdie dual rank bin was plenty to max out Comet Lake at c14/4500-4600 depending on your IMC quality. You could have bought a xmp bin that was much higher on paper and twice the money but would end up at the same peak due to limitations of the IC, IMC and board. Memory is one area still where you can actually save a ton of money but at the same time get a lot of performance out of it.

DDR5 is no different. Here’s a perfect example. My buddy has this kit: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/king...00c40-6000mhz-dual-channel-kit-my-29j-ks.html

This is his daily stable tune:
20220830_170724.jpg


Now he could spend twice as much on something like this: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/team...6400mhz-dual-channel-kit-black-my-0av-tg.html

And it would be a complete waste of money. That kit, since it’s the same IC, PCB and PMIC will end up at the same tune. That’s a lot of money saved.

Looking ahead, a few members of our group are testing a new IC that doesn’t even have a xmp profile. They’re literally green sticks. And those are now topping out at 7800-8000mhz on adl.

Another thing to note, secondary and tertiary timings on ddr5 are even more important to know and tune than ddr4. Keeping them loose/auto while focusing on frequency and primary timings will yield little performance.

All this means you’re going to see large deltas in performance between systems and their given levels of tune for adl and rpl. Upto 30%+ in cases.
 
I imagine you can crank up the voltage to 1.5-1.6v, as the screenshot shows above. Most people will want something stable that runs reasonably cool, has good endurance and can be run 24/7 doing whatever.

It would be way simpler just to buy lower voltage modules and just set their speed with XMP / EXPO. Latency or whatever isn't going to be an issue, because the total latency will be lower anyway (even if they did raise the CAS latency above 40), and most people buy higher frequency RAM to get more bandwidth. The Samsung chips likely coming in late 2023 are designed to run at 1.1v, which is the original JEDEC spec for DDR5, but at 7200 MT/s. No doubt it will be possible to achieve even higher frequencies than that though.

In the meantime, I think using DDR5 6000 MT/s modules should give good performance, maybe overclocking the frequency a bit and raising voltage if temp allows (it depends also if you are using a LGA1700 or AM5 system).

EDIT - I've been reading that Samsung's new DRAM fabrication process (EUV) allows a reduction in power usage (~20%), so perhaps this explains the lower voltages?
Link:
www.tomshardware.com

Samsung's 5-Layer EUV DDR5 in Production, DDR5-7200 ICs Incoming

Samsung's 14nm five-layer EUV fabrication process will enable DDR5-7200 chips.
www.tomshardware.com www.tomshardware.com
 
That is a 24/7 stable setup he’s been running for months. Your understanding of ram is all over the place.

If you’re serious about understanding ram, start reading here: https://github.com/integralfx/MemTestHelper/blob/oc-guide/DDR4 OC Guide.md

You‘re on one of the best ram tuning platforms so applying those principles to your rig would accelerate the learning.

You’re not going to understand or learn much by reading random press releases. Certainly don’t offer advice given your current level.
 
Robert896r1 said:
Waiting for xmp bins is not needed. Firstly, the higher the bins, the looser the timings so that’s a path down diminishing returns. You then have another issue that buying a high xmp bin and leaving voltages on auto will boost them through the roof. No board manufacturer cares if you degrade your IMC. Their goal is get it to train and boot so you don’t call support.

Just like DDR4, ram itself is IC and PCB dependent. On top of that, DDR5 brings another variable, PMIC, due to the voltage controller now being on the sticks. So now you need to be aware of 3 variables which won’t be advertised on the box.

The next variable is your cpu and board. Not all cpu and boards will do the same tune. Silicon lottery exists on IMC’s as well. Boards of the same model and FW generally peak and behave the same though.

Back to the xmp lack of relevance. On ddr4, the c14-14-14 3200mhz bdie dual rank bin was plenty to max out Comet Lake at c14/4500-4600 depending on your IMC quality. You could have bought a xmp bin that was much higher on paper and twice the money but would end up at the same peak due to limitations of the IC, IMC and board. Memory is one area still where you can actually save a ton of money but at the same time get a lot of performance out of it.

DDR5 is no different. Here’s a perfect example. My buddy has this kit: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/king...00c40-6000mhz-dual-channel-kit-my-29j-ks.html

This is his daily stable tune:
20220830_170724.jpg


Now he could spend twice as much on something like this: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/team...6400mhz-dual-channel-kit-black-my-0av-tg.html

And it would be a complete waste of money. That kit, since it’s the same IC, PCB and PMIC will end up at the same tune. That’s a lot of money saved.

Looking ahead, a few members of our group are testing a new IC that doesn’t even have a xmp profile. They’re literally green sticks. And those are now topping out at 7800-8000mhz on adl.

Another thing to note, secondary and tertiary timings on ddr5 are even more important to know and tune than ddr4. Keeping them loose/auto while focusing on frequency and primary timings will yield little performance.

All this means you’re going to see large deltas in performance between systems and their given levels of tune for adl and rpl. Upto 30%+ in cases.
Click to expand...
I'm still on my Dell green Hynix!! There weren't cheap at the time but no ddr5 was, still not worth changing apart from the A die you are mentioning. Splave has a few binned kits for sale but I may just wait it out for a while to see what happens and what platform I intend to purchase over the coming months.
 
Nickolp1974 said:
I'm still on my Dell green Hynix!! There weren't cheap at the time but no ddr5 was, still not worth changing apart from the A die you are mentioning. Splave has a few binned kits for sale but I may just wait it out for a while to see what happens and what platform I intend to purchase over the coming months.
Click to expand...

Yeah I saw that. Not a bad price given that they’re binned but may as well wait for retail if you’re waiting on rpl anyway. Just make sure you get renesas pmic’s.
 
Robert896r1 said:
Yeah I saw that. Not a bad price given that they’re binned but may as well wait for retail if you’re waiting on rpl anyway. Just make sure you get renesas pmic’s.
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking, curious if Asus will have there act together with the new Apex, hoping so as I prefer there boards, had to send my z690 back, like many others. Luckily getting full refund. A sorted apex and A die would be a great combo so fingers crossed.
 
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