Point still stands, in 2005 the everton squad that finished 4th had nowhere near the quality of Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or Manu. Spurs could as easily do it as we did.
**Summer Transfer Thread: News, Rumours and Speculation**
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Point still stands, in 2005 the everton squad that finished 4th had nowhere near the quality of Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or Manu. Spurs could as easily do it as we did.
Caporegime
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You're right, the top 4 aren't the same as they were a few years ago. Arsenal no longer have Cole, Campbell, Toure, Vieira, Gilberto, Flamini, Pires, Ljungberg, Bergkamp, Henry, Reyes, Hleb etc.
Not really sure what you're getting at with Fabregas, people are saying that good players play every match, I'm saying if you've got that good a squad, it doesn't always happen. There have been plenty of good (note we're talking good here, not world beaters) players over the years who have been at clubs for a while and not been regular starters.
As for Cudicini, he's certainly good enough to be a backup top 4 keeper imo. Heck, for years and years and years I'd hear Newcastle fans telling me how wonderful Steve Harper was, surely he must have been one of the worst players in the history of the Premiership though considering how he wasn't playing every week despite being in that division for years and years? Again, no shame in playing second fiddle to Shay Given.
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You said Fabregas plays second fiddle to Xavi and Iniesta, but that's because he has to. If Arsenal signed Iniesta and Xavi then Fabregas wouldn't sit on the bench. You'll rarely find a world class player sitting on a bench anywhere, if at all.
Unless its a national team which I already said is completely different.
In my opinion the gap isnt getting bigger at all. If anything none of the so called big 4 are in any better position squad wise than last season, in fact you could argue they are worse, and with the exception of Arsenal this can be seen by their laboured starts.
United have lost Ronaldo and Tevez. Yes they have replaced them but they need to gel, and this could take time. They are hardly firing at present. They struggled to overcome Birmingham, and ran out of ideas last night.
Chelsea didnt bring anyone of significance in either, yes they have the Russain guy but until he starts playing we wont know what to expect. They too havent started well, they are learning a new system and Hull proved that if you get at them they are fragile.
Liverpool have signed Johnson, who appears a good signing but lost Alonso. They seem no better than last season, and when they come up against sides with quality they struggled, evident at WHL on the opening day.
Arsenal look good, but until they face a side without issues we wont know what to expect. They lost Toure and Adebayor, but most Arsenal fans I know think they are better off without them. However, they lack strength in depth, talent there but still unproven.
As for Spurs (I could mention City, but as the main argument appears to be about Spurs I wont) they for once havent upset the apple cart and signed half a squad this summer, and this could be why they started well, and could be dangerous this season. Harry has sorted the problem and the team are playing very well.
If anything they are better off than last season (performances support this) and all the top 4 weaker or no better off. That doesnt strike me as the gap getting wider.
People are forgetting Spurs were unbeaten against the top 4 at home last season, beating Liverpool and Chelsea, should have beaten Arsenal and drew with a Ronaldo Man Utd. They drew away to Arsenal (could have lost, but the comeback shows how far they have progressed), drew with Chelsea, when they were on that terrible run and only lost to United when the ref gave that penalty after being 2-0 up and comfortable.
While I still dont think they will break the top 4 this season, but they will give it a very good go, I would say they are closing the gap team wise rather than it getting bigger.
They play both Utd and Chelsea in a couple of weeks and if they come out of those games with points maybe peoples opinions will be different.
I think you are looking at it from the player's perspective (implication being that a world class player wouldn't be happy on the bench and over time would seek to move away)?
The point I was trying to make was that you can't judge a managers choice of starting XI as the sole factor of deciding whether a player is good (remember I said good, no mention of world class). If you've got 2 very good players in a position, and another good one, the good one will be benched more often than not.
If it makes you happier, we'll leave Fabregas not starting to one side and go back to the Arsenal reserves. If you've got a squad with Fabregas, Arshavin, Rosicky, Nasri, Van Persie, Eduardo etc, then you can't really say that U21s like Wilshere, Vela and Ramsey aren't good players just because they can't force their way past those lot and be starting every week. They are all established internationals.
Pigeon_Killer was basically implying that Wilshere isn't good enough... well, he arguably isn't good enough to be in the starting XI for Arsenal yet, but then he was born in 1992. Steven Gerrard didn't make his debut until he was 18, does that mean he wasn't good enough to be a backup player and future prospect at Liverpool? From what I've seen of him he's certainly good enough to be a backup player, and could develop into a very good replacement for our current players when they move on or lose form in later years.
The point I was trying to make was that you can't judge a managers choice of starting XI as the sole factor of deciding whether a player is good (remember I said good, no mention of world class). If you've got 2 very good players in a position, and another good one, the good one will be benched more often than not.
If it makes you happier, we'll leave Fabregas not starting to one side and go back to the Arsenal reserves. If you've got a squad with Fabregas, Arshavin, Rosicky, Nasri, Van Persie, Eduardo etc, then you can't really say that U21s like Wilshere, Vela and Ramsey aren't good players just because they can't force their way past those lot and be starting every week. They are all established internationals.
Pigeon_Killer was basically implying that Wilshere isn't good enough... well, he arguably isn't good enough to be in the starting XI for Arsenal yet, but then he was born in 1992. Steven Gerrard didn't make his debut until he was 18, does that mean he wasn't good enough to be a backup player and future prospect at Liverpool? From what I've seen of him he's certainly good enough to be a backup player, and could develop into a very good replacement for our current players when they move on or lose form in later years.
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Sorry, are you actually making a statement that Liverpool struggle agaist sides with quality based on 1 game?
Regarding the point of your post; I agree that compared with last season Spurs and City look like they might be closer the the top 4 than what they were (and they were miles away), whether they'll be as close as Everton and Villa got to Arsenal (or whether Everton or Villa get any closer) is another matter.
As for whether anybody can break into the top 4; I've said before that if everything clicks at City then they've got enough quality and a big enough squad to be right up there. For anybody else to do it then they're going to have to massively over perform and need one of the current top 4 to have a bad season. We saw last season that even with Everton recording their highest points total in the EPL (not sure but I think it was the same for Villa too) and Arsenal having a poor season (by their standards), Everton were still 9 points short.
The one with double Diaby in
Either way it's going to be interesting to see what happens over the next few years, in the past we had the big six (tb4 + Newcastle and Leeds), but with a max of 4 places available in the CL a couple were always likely to have to take a step back and not be able to maintain that level of spending. If Man City push into the top4 consistently then that could spell trouble for one of the other clubs banking on that CL cash, especially Arsenal who have an astronomical wage bill (over £100m on the last figures I saw, a good £15m/year above Liverpool). I suppose you'd have to say Chelsea are safe thanks to their sugar daddy, and MU at least have their gate receipts to fall back on. Liverpool could have a tough time of it I guess, the Stanley Park stadium seems to be showing no signs of materialising just yet and while Torres seems very settled in Liverpool, I suspect he'd fancy a move if they weren't competing for the big prize.
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Caporegime
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I'm confident of a 6th place finish this year if we can keep Palacios, Modric and our CBs fit as long as possible.
The change Palacios has brought about has been extraordinary.
The change Palacios has brought about has been extraordinary.
I suspect our wage bill won't be far off Arsenal's with all the new deals being handed out over the last year. Agger, Benayoun, Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres have all been given new deals and no doubt an extra ~£20k per week. I think I've mentioned previously in this thread that our increased wage bill might be part of the reason why we've not been so active in the transfer market. The new contracts above would have added somewhere in the region of £5m a year to our wage bill, you then have Voronin returning (~£30-40k per week) and signing Johnson (probably around another £40-50k more than Arbeloa (Aquilani for Alonso won't be much difference)). We've shipped out quite a few youngsters but all in all, I wouldn't be suprised if our wage bill is a good £8m a year more than last season.
Also, not a transfer but the Danish FA have claimed that Agger is set to have an operation on his back next week but they're expecting him to be fit for their Qualifiers in October. I know Rafa said the other day that he'll be out for another 3 week but not sure if that was the decision for him to hav the op.
Also, not a transfer but the Danish FA have claimed that Agger is set to have an operation on his back next week but they're expecting him to be fit for their Qualifiers in October. I know Rafa said the other day that he'll be out for another 3 week but not sure if that was the decision for him to hav the op.
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When did you see these statistics for Arsenals wages ? Quite a few big names have moved in the last 2 or 3 years. But I agree that both us (Arsenal) and Liverpool could be in trouble but not quite yet. I think Man City may be able to push us all the way next season, but I'm not convinced that when times are hard the likes of Adebyour and Robinho will pull their weight and its likely Robinho would fancy a move if he doesn't get any Champions League action next season as well.
EDIT: Just seen the article and your right it is £100mill (Sep 08) :O really suprised seeing as Henry and Sol left
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...enal-wage-bill-goes-past-100m---Football.html
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BBC Transfer Gossip said:
What that actually says is 'most players?'
There's no depth because depth in football terms means good quality players to replace great players.
There's no great players.
So if they have to replace Gerrard and Torres at any point they step down to being around the same level as Spurs. That doesn't mean Spurs have a better squad, just a weaker first team.
A few rags this morning are suggesting Agger might be out for a couple of months due to the op - obviously doesnt mean they are accurate of course, but middle to late Oct seems reasonable if it is a back problem
Wenger has said before that those stats are very misleading and that Arsenal publish the full amount their players get and the other top clubs pay them through several dodgy means and don't publish their full wages, so those figures are inaccurate and Arsenal's wage bill is lower than the other top 4 teams.
In a way the fact we don't have any "superstars" plays into our hands, in previous seasons our playing style was around Carrick and latterly Berbatov. It took us a whole season to transition after losing Carrick as he was the key cog in the system. Likewise without Berbatov as the focal point we had a disastrous start to last season. Now without a stand out player(s) we aren't particularly weakened by a long term injury or losing a player in the transfer window.
Can the same be said for Liverpool (Gerrard/Torres) or even Man Utd (Rooney), Arsenal (Fabregas/Van Persie), Chelsea (Lampard/Terry) for that matter?
In a way the fact we don't have any "superstars" plays into our hands, in previous seasons our playing style was around Carrick and latterly Berbatov. It took us a whole season to transition after losing Carrick as he was the key cog in the system. Likewise without Berbatov as the focal point we had a disastrous start to last season. Now without a stand out player(s) we aren't particularly weakened by a long term injury or losing a player in the transfer window.
Can the same be said for Liverpool (Gerrard/Torres) or even Man Utd (Rooney), Arsenal (Fabregas/Van Persie), Chelsea (Lampard/Terry) for that matter?
So you are saying Spurs won't be weakened by losing Defoe / Palacios?