Summer Transfer Window 2017/18 - Rumours & Signings
- Thread starter BaZ87
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I think the point omnomnom was making is that we wouldn't need to sell Coutinho to buy Mahrez. With £60-70m earmarked for Keita not being spent we could afford to sign Marhez right now, if we wanted him anyway. VvD's possible transfer is completely independent of Coutinho too. If Southampton are willing to sell him then we'll buy him regardless of Coutinho staying or going. What you're suggesting is effectively swapping Coutinho for Mahrez which makes no sense whatsoever.
The signing of Mahrez would give us the cover/competition for Mane and Salah in the wide areas (which we'd lose if Coutinho left) but that's it. Coutinho is also an option and will start many games in our midfield 3 too. We'd be losing a first 11 player that can and will play 2 different positions and be replacing him with a squad player for 1 of those 2 positions.
The only way it makes sense for us to sell Coutinho would be if it allowed us to sign Keita (or similar) and another attacking midfielder/winger/forward of at least Mahrez's quality.
The signing of Mahrez would give us the cover/competition for Mane and Salah in the wide areas (which we'd lose if Coutinho left) but that's it. Coutinho is also an option and will start many games in our midfield 3 too. We'd be losing a first 11 player that can and will play 2 different positions and be replacing him with a squad player for 1 of those 2 positions.
The only way it makes sense for us to sell Coutinho would be if it allowed us to sign Keita (or similar) and another attacking midfielder/winger/forward of at least Mahrez's quality.
I can't see us being in the market for a forward of that level unless Coutinho goes. We could do with another player that can play wide in our front 3 but I think it's a bit unrealistic to have Mane, Salah, Coutinho and Draxler. I suppose you could always move Coutinho back into a midfield role more permanently but that wouldn't solve our midfield issues and wouldn't leave much money to sign somebody that would.
PSG are only his 3rd club but then again he's only 23.
Evans obviously won't be signing as a starter for them. He'd be a steady 4th or 5th choice and given the money City have spent already and if they do plan on making a bid for Sanchez, they probably can't afford to buy anybody better than him.
Evans won't give a **** about his history with Utd. He'd get far more money and play at a bigger club rather than stay at West Brom and equally West Brom would have a price.
Evans won't give a **** about his history with Utd. He'd get far more money and play at a bigger club rather than stay at West Brom and equally West Brom would have a price.
Not that there's anything remotely reliable linking us with him, a transfer would rely on other deals imo. Even the possible deals for Keita and VvD were probably on the basis that we sold Sakho, Markovic etc which as yet hasn't happened. If we're still trying to sign a CB and CM, I can't see how we could afford to sign Draxler too.
That said, it's looking increasingly unlikely that we will sign a CB at all and even if we do, with VvD looking like staying, any CB we sign won't be costing £50-60m. Same story with Keita - although Klopps admitted that we're actively looking to sign a CM, I can't imagine we'll spend the £60m we had set aside for Keita.
Agree that we shouldn't go for another forward if it prevents us signing a defender or midfielder but if we could make it work then I'd 100% be signing somebody like Draxler rather than a centre forward. Firmino's first choice there and we're never affording somebody good enough to take his place and even signing somebody as cover would prove far more complicated. It's far easier to rotate and switch systems to create opportunities for somebody like Draxler than it would be a centre forward - even in our regular 4-3-3 system he's competing for 2 spots rather than 1, we could switch to a 4-2-3-1 and fit all 3 of him, Salah & Mane in the side and although he doesn't cover the centre forward position himself, if Firmino was ever out Mane can play there (and has at times) if we have another wide option.
Even with Coutinho staying, we're still left with just 3 options for the 2 wide roles in our front 3 - there's room for 1 more, especially if Coutinho plays more in midfield. If you include Ings we've got 5 players that can play centrally and we only play 1.
Given the way we play, I really don't think we can ask for much more in regards to centre forward options. Firmino is clearly key part to the system we play and I can't see Klopp changing that for anything less than a truly world class striker - somebody of Suarez's level, for example. Given that Firmino as a number 9 is going to be the first name on the team sheet, we're left in a position where young promising strikers like Origi and Solanke are the best cover we can expect. No established top class centre forward is going to join as a bit part player.
He doesn't need it but that doesn't mean it's not attractive to him. And what fan base are you talking about? Utd fans don't really care about him - it's not as if he'll be remembered by many Utd fans in years to come. He has a choice of playing regularly for West Brom or being part of a City squad, get paid double and possibly win things.
I'm not sure if you're being serious or not.
If anybody believes that Boateng is even a tenth of the player that Lallana is then their only experience of football is through Football Manager or Fifa and isn't worth concerning yourself with.
I'm convinced Stig is on the wind up, not sure what grimm's excuse is.
I'm convinced Stig is on the wind up, not sure what grimm's excuse is.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...hilippe-coutinho-transfer-close-says-13488223
I'd guess Segura's comments might have had something to do with Real handing Barca their arse on a plate and him trying to appease a mob. Barca have of course been briefing their press that a deal was hours away for the past 2 weeks now.
The whole world could see that Lovren was going to improve our defence too. He was equally as impressive at Southampton as VvD has been and we still have the same defensive issues. As I've kept saying and Jamie Carragher said on Sky the other day (presumably he reads my posts) - our defensive problems are more to do with the way we play than our actual defenders. It does not matter who you have playing CB, if you keep leaving your CB's totally exposed on their own, you're going to struggle. Klopp isn't stupid and we're not defending like that for no reason. We set up in a way where we want to dominate possession and press teams and defend higher up the pitch - a consequence of that is that when teams beat the press or we lose possession, we're always going to be open at the back. Klopp's decided that the benefits of playing this way outweigh the risks.
Of course there are CB's that can come into our side and improve us but it's not as straight forward as some like to think though. There would be no point signing a 27 year old John Terry for example - Terry was as good a CB as there's been in the past 20 years but he's not remotely suited to playing in our system nor are a lot of other CB's. We need a CB with very specific qualities - we don't defend on the edge of our 18 yard box, our CB's defend on the half way line.
Danny is right when he says you can't blame our owners if we don't sign a CB. All they can do is provide the funds to make signings and they've done that.
Of course there are CB's that can come into our side and improve us but it's not as straight forward as some like to think though. There would be no point signing a 27 year old John Terry for example - Terry was as good a CB as there's been in the past 20 years but he's not remotely suited to playing in our system nor are a lot of other CB's. We need a CB with very specific qualities - we don't defend on the edge of our 18 yard box, our CB's defend on the half way line.
Danny is right when he says you can't blame our owners if we don't sign a CB. All they can do is provide the funds to make signings and they've done that.
I agree with what you're saying but it is linked to our system imo. In those situations we're neither smart enough nor horrible enough and that's a result of who we're playing and where we're playing them. Look at Bournemouth away last season - how many sides get caught on the counter attack when leading by 2 goals and there being just 15 minutes to go? I don't believe for a moment that Klopp wanted us to be over committing in those positions and I can recall several occasions over the last 2 years where Klopp's been screaming at the likes of Moreno or Can for being caught up field at stupid times. But Henderson isn't going to suddenly become Mascherano with 15 minutes to go and neither is Milner going to become Arbeloa - there's going to be times where their natural instinct to get forward will override their brains.
I say this more in hope than expectation but after a season of playing in new positions, hopefully players like Henderson, Wijnaldum and Lallana might be able to play with more discipline more often. If you look back to the games vs the biggest sides we often defended better than against the lesser sides so they are capable of doing it. It's just those dips in concentration and discipline maybe when they're not 100% focused.
I know Klopp hates it but I really wish we were more cynical at times too. How many times on Tuesday was Mane or Firmino hacked down when we were threatening to break? In years gone by we'd have had Arbeloa, Carra or Masch doing the same, taking players out on the half way line. Now we almost wave them through on goal.
Klopp and our style of play ultimately got us into the top 4 last season but it's a really high risk way of playing and addressing the weaknesses of the system isn't easy - we require a very specific type of player and there aren't many that fit the bill. In normal circumstances I'd have been against paying over £50m on a CB that's been injured for 5 months but VvD ticked all the boxes for us. Same story with Keita, at least in theory as I can't pretend to have seen him play week in week out.
As much as I agree that our general performance wasn't great vs Hoffenheim (or Watford for that matter) we still went away to a side that's been unbeaten at home for 15 months and won and created enough chances to have score 4 or 5 goals that day too. Missing Coutinho wasn't our issue in either match we've played this season - it's been our lack of control in midfield.
As for his value - isn't that how every value is reached? The willingness of the seller to sell and how badly the buyer wants to buy?
Pogba was only worth £90m because Utd were desperate to sign him, no other side were willing to pay that much. VvD is only worth £50-60m this summer because Liverpool are desperate to sign, despite some weak links to Chelsea & City it appears nobody else is willing to pay that much.And it's not now or never for Coutinho - there's always a market for players with his ability and profile. I've actually said previous to this summer that Coutinho to Barca was only ever going to be as a replacement for Iniesta and even the reports this summer are stating that Barca hadn't planned on bidding for Coutinho until next summer for that very reason. It was only after losing Neymar, getting bags of money and being under pressure to buy now that they're doing so. You're right if they can't sign him they'll sign somebody else because clubs like Barca make decisions to appease fans so that the president gets elected again. If they miss out on Coutinho they'll go out and spend a stupid fee signing somebody far inferior like a Gomes or Paulinho and in 12 months they'll still be looking for an Iniesta replacement.
I agree there's a need to sign another CB and CM but unless we're going to completely change the way we play (which we won't) then we need very specific types of CB & CM for it to make a noticeable difference. I know exactly what you mean when you say Hyypia but we're coming back to what I was getting at in my last post. Even at his absolute best Hyypia couldn't play in this side and would struggle just as much as any CB we have. When we're looking for a CB the first thing we need to look at is how suited they are to playing in a side the defends high up the pitch - how capable are they defending large spaces when getting broke on and how well they defend one on one situations. That has to be the priority given the way we play - if you have defenders that can cope in those situations better then you're not going to end up on the back foot and having to defend set plays as much. If it so happens that you can get a CB that combines that ability with the strengths of a 25 year old Hyypia then great - that person is VvD btw.
It's the same story with our midfield. There would be no point signing Didi Hamann. We're a high energy, pressing team that looks to dominate possession - Didi wouldn't even break into a jog most games and never left the centre circle. The priority for any midfielder we sign is their ability to play our pressing game and can play when they get on the ball because again, if you're doing that part of the job right, there's less emphasis on the defensive side of the role. Like with the CB, if we can sign a midfielder that has pressing & passing game along with that horrible, cynical side to his game then great.
If we can't get those very specific types of players then it will make things harder but just being a little bit more smarter and street wise at times would go a long way to improving our defensive problems.
Not that I agree that the scoreline flattered us (we had more and better chances than they did) but the point I was making was that we didn't miss Coutinho that day. We had no problems creating chances our problems were at the other end of the pitch. Using the Hoffenheim game as a reason why we need to keep Coutinho seemed strange.
Again not that I agree (this marketable stuff always does my head in) but the point I was making is that a transfer fee is always dictated by how desperate a side is to keep a player and how desperate a side is to buy a player. Pogba was worth £90m because that was the balancing point between Utd and Juve's desperations. To say Coutinho is only worth x because Barca desperately want him is stating the obvious and applies to most expensive signings. Kyle Walker was only worth £50m because City were desperate, Matic was only worth £40m because Utd were desperate - to no other clubs were these players worth these fees just like Pogba wasn't worth £90m to Real or VvD isn't worth £50m to Utd.
And I'm hoping to win the lottery. Anybody with a brain cell knows that Coutinho wouldn't have been available for £45m (half of what they've offered) no matter what Barca hoped. Teams no longer are forced to sell players, especially if those players have long contracts and for every time Barca have been able to negotiate a decent fee, there's 3 times where they've spent huge fees on absolutely average players. They've just spent nearly £40m on Paulinho for crying out loud. As I said, they make decisions purely to appease fans and they'll carry on doing it - if and when they can't sign Coutinho or Dembele they'll end up spending just as much on somebody because their fans will turn on them if they don't.
Coutinho may not be one of the best players in the world but he's better than Pogba is/was or Lukaku is/was and they've been sold for similar amounts to what Barca have offered - there is no reason why Liverpool would ever sell him for less than that sort of fee because it will cost them stupid money to replace him. I can't see into the future so I wouldn't say for certain whether Barca will be in for him again next summer but it's very possible that they or a Real, PSG or Bayern will be. You're right when you say we won't sell him for much less than what's been offered though which is why I can't see how we can lose out by not accepting Barca's £90m offer. If that offer doesn't materialise next summer we keep the player - I'd rather keep the player. The decision for Liverpool comes if and when Barca make a really big offer - if they offer (as some say they might) £120m+ then Liverpool have to think because that sort of offer probably won't come around again. But who knows - if we revisited the summer 2013 thread I'm sure there were lots of people saying that Liverpool were mad to have rejected Arsenal's £35m offer for Suarez and they'd never get more than the £40m offer that followed.
Replace Coutinho and Liverpool with Pogba and Utd and supporters of other teams don't say good, they say average
I have no desire to get into a who's better debate but I think it's very fair to say Coutinho is worth similar money to either of those players at the very least.And £45m or £55m was never going to be enough to sign Coutinho, everybody knows that. Even if Liverpool were open to selling because of the fees that other sides have paid and how much it would cost for them to sign a replacement, they were never going to accept much less than £90m odd.
It's not just every club knowing Barca have money, it's the fact that as soon as anybody sells to Barca, they're suddenly in Barca's position. Rory Smith said something on 5Live the other day - if Liverpool sell Coutinho for £120m, we'll then go for somebody like Pulisic and his price goes from £50m to £100m. We'd be signing an inferior/unproven player for almost as much as we'd get for Coutinho.
This always gets said but how often do we see players not perform when they don't get their move? I can think of far more players that have been kept against their wishes that have continued to play at a high level than those that haven't. Players will want to leave and might kick up a fuss to force a move but as soon as it's no longer possible for them to do so, what reason do they have for not performing and how will it benefit them.
In recent years I can only think of Berahino that's just down tools and look how that worked out for him.
The risk to Liverpool (or any other club in this situation) isn't really whether the player will perform but whether they'll ever get the chance to sell for that price again.
It works both ways though. How many times do clubs sign a player and 6 months or a year later they're trying to sell them?
A few more details of the bid are coming out. It turns out it wasn't £114m rising to £118m. It was £82m rising to £114m, possibly rising further to £118m - no idea what the difference is between the add-ons that take it to £114m and the extra £4m.
I honestly can't think of any other (relatively) high profile examples other than Berahino that have not just got on with things.
Plenty of players have wanted to leave, not got their way and eventually accepted the decision. Ronaldo a year before he joined Real, Modric (to Chelsea) the year before he signed for Real, Mascherano to Barca the year before he left, Fabregas to Barca the season before he left, Suarez the year before he moved, Schneiderlin the year before he left Southampton.
I honestly can't think of any other (relatively) high profile examples other than Berahino that have not just got on with things.