** The AMD Navi Thread **

[Chrisc]

Sapphire: Navi will not have specialised ray tracing hardware!

https://hexus.net/tech/news/graphics/130772-sapphire-amd-will-unveil-two-navi-skus-monday-computex/

Sapphire reps confirmed Navi will not have hardware ray tracing.

£499 for RX 3080 and £399 for RX 3070!

Way overpriced without hardware ray tracing, Nvidia Turing RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 are very much better value.

AMD shot in both feets and Navi is DOA.

Cant see Polaris owners will bother to pay £200-£300 more upgrade their 14nm GPUs to Navi 7nm GPUs, I can see Polaris owners buy second hand Vega cards or second hand GTX 1070, GTX 1080 cards to experienced basic ray tracing or buy RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 to have great experience with ray tracing.

To be fair the RTX is only really playable on the 2080/ti at 1080p. i really couldnt care less about having ray tracing cores on the new AMD cards until it becomes mainstream, at the minute its just a gimmick to me. Dont get me wrong, it does look good, but i can certainly wait a few years for it.

 

[LePhuronn]

To be fair the RTX is only really playable on the 2080/ti at 1080p. i really couldnt care less about having ray tracing cores on the new AMD cards until it becomes mainstream, at the minute its just a gimmick to me. Dont get me wrong, it does look good, but i can certainly wait a few years for it.

We, as enthusiasts, know that, but you're not a nerd then you probably won't. But that still leaves RTX tech as a marketing device and deal sweetener. We all want the most for our hard-earned cash, and to the more casual consumer you "just get more" for your money with Nvidia if RTX 2000 and RX 3000 are priced identically.

 

[Freddie1980]

Those prices aren't bad, for the same money you get better performance (if the vague performance metrics are to believed) or you get the same for less to the given RTX card.

 

[Aretak]

We, as enthusiasts, know that, but you're not a nerd then you probably won't. But that still leaves RTX tech as a marketing device and deal sweetener. We all want the most for our hard-earned cash, and to the more casual consumer you "just get more" for your money with Nvidia if RTX 2000 and RX 3000 are priced identically.

Is that true though? RTX cards are a running joke everywhere I look around the internet, not just on specialised hardware enthusiast forums. From general gaming forums to Twitter to Youtube comments, most people who would be in the market for buying a graphics card seem well aware that they're overpriced and underpowered. Maybe not once you get down to the level of people who don't pay any attention to what's going on at all and just buy the latest Nvidia card when it arrives, but the chances of AMD converting those people seem low at best. Historically, even when AMD have had outright better products that were also cheaper, Nvidia cards have still outsold them. There's a large core of people who are as loyal to Nvidia as Apple fans are to their master, and I don't believe that those people would consider AMD even if Navi did have raytracing. There's no logic to their purchasing decision - it just needs to say Nvidia on the box (and the same goes for a lot of companies, like people who pay the Asus tax). AMD need to court realistic customers, rather than the ultra-casual consumer who isn't going to buy their product either way. Winning over those people can only come over a long period of time spent changing mind share to the point where Nvidia is no longer the default accepted option, and AMD aren't even close to being close to that.

 

[TNA]

RTX cards are a running joke everywhere I look around the internet

True. I wonder how they will sort it out with their next 7nm cards.

Not expecting much from Navi. People expecting great pricing, but AMD right now cannot get into a pricing war with nvidia. Better off just making nice margins now so they have some r&d money for the future to stay in the game.

 

[LePhuronn]

Well therein lies the rub, Aretak.

If the general consensus of RTX is a joke because of being overpriced, then Navi will be a joke because it's overpriced. So in order to court realistic customers, as you say, AMD need to take advantage of this backlash against Nvidia, take the "moral high ground" and not fleece the customer base and drive the benchmark for what constitutes "mid range" back to sensible levels of performance and price. i.e. it's 2019 so why are we paying more than £300 ish for GTX 1080 performance?

Go for Nvidia's jugular, just like it appears they're doing with Intel and Zen 2.

 

[LePhuronn]

but AMD right now cannot get into a pricing war with nvidia. Better off just making nice margins now so they have some r&d money for the future to stay in the game.

Between Turing's production costs and Nvidia's arrogance, there is no pricing war to be had. The entire point of Navi was supposed to be a small, focussed gaming chip with no cruft which makes it small and cheap (ish) to produce, and can still create nice margins without gouging the hell out of customers. Just how much can Nvidia reduce Turing prices if Navi went for RTX's throat?

Lisa Su said she wanted to make 40% on Navi. 40% is a ridiculously tiny amount. Make some profit yes, but there's more profit to be had with high volume, low margin sales than high margin, low volume sales.

 

[Trustdesa]

Well therein lies the rub, Aretak.

If the general consensus of RTX is a joke because of being overpriced, then Navi will be a joke because it's overpriced. So in order to court realistic customers, as you say, AMD need to take advantage of this backlash against Nvidia, take the "moral high ground" and not fleece the customer base and drive the benchmark for what constitutes "mid range" back to sensible levels of performance and price. i.e. it's 2019 so why are we paying more than £300 ish for GTX 1080 performance?

Go for Nvidia's jugular, just like it appears they're doing with Intel and Zen 2.

NAVI overall is way more overpriced of a RTX........RTX had some R&D for brand new tech, NAVI has none of that for a premium without offering anything. Eventually RTX game will be release that is a given, especially with new consoles having it in some form.

I was waiting however at this point I just wait for Nvidia to drop the price of RTX when these rumored new cards with new vram come out.

NAVI to win should cost less than that for sure, that is price gauging at its finest.

 

[D.P.]

Between Turing's production costs and Nvidia's arrogance, there is no pricing war to be had. The entire point of Navi was supposed to be a small, focussed gaming chip with no cruft which makes it small and cheap (ish) to produce, and can still create nice margins without gouging the hell out of customers. Just how much can Nvidia reduce Turing prices if Navi went for RTX's throat?

Lisa Su said she wanted to make 40% on Navi. 40% is a ridiculously tiny amount. Make some profit yes, but there's more profit to be had with high volume, low margin sales than high margin, low volume sales.

Turing production cost will be less than Navi. And Nvidia's profit margin is around 40% overall, so looks like AMd simply want to meet Nvidia's margins which makes sense.


But you are contradicting yourself. If Turing is priced so high because of large profit margins then it is incredibly simple for Nvidia to have a price war. Nvidia have already made billions on Turing, recompensed their R&D and can go about driving down AMD's market share even further if they wanted to.

If AMD significantly undercuts NVidia's prices, Nvidia can simply lower prices if it is having an effect on sales volume. But you will probably find that even if AMd comes in at a lower price point Nvidia's sales wont be impact, market share will stay the same, just AMD will make less profit and have less R&D budget in the future.

that is why AMD wont start a price war, because they are the only ones who will loose out big time.

 

[flea.rider]

Turing production cost will be less than Navi. And Nvidia's profit margin is around 40% overall, so looks like AMd simply want to meet Nvidia's margins which makes sense.


But you are contradicting yourself. If Turing is priced so high because of large profit margins then it is incredibly simple for Nvidia to have a price war. Nvidia have already made billions on Turing, recompensed their R&D and can go about driving down AMD's market share even further if they wanted to.

If AMD significantly undercuts NVidia's prices, Nvidia can simply lower prices if it is having an effect on sales volume. But you will probably find that even if AMd comes in at a lower price point Nvidia's sales wont be impact, market share will stay the same, just AMD will make less profit and have less R&D budget in the future.

that is why AMD wont start a price war, because they are the only ones who will loose out big time.

NVidia in no way afford to drop it's price on rtx ..why share price yes it may have money in the bank but this is needed to push into ai and cars .. and for the next r&d ..
if amd took that gamble and released at say £300-400/$300-400 it would be forcing NVidia's hand and amd could well handle it with ryzen 2 coming out at the same time .. you know that's going to sell like hot cakes
and with sales on consoles rising with the release of the next lot .. I think they would win ..

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

So all the hype that Navi would be under £300 was rubbish. So they are starting at well over £300,ie,RTX2060 pricing. So if Navi is under 10% faster than the equivalent Turing cards and has no raytracing as a marketing point its going to be a flop.

Also what is more worrying is what is AMD going to be selling under £300?? If its Polaris and Vega,they are not going to do well - Turing will have more features,and just look better for an average buyer.

Turing features aren't available under £300 though. I'd certainly rather get a Vega 56 over 1660ti

Maybe AMD are happy keeping 25% Market Share while maximising profits.

 

[Scougar]

How much truth in these prices though? Instant reaction from me was "fail". Still feel that way tbh. AMD need to get consumer interest. Unless these are offering something interesting and outright beat the competing cards as well, may as well just buy Nvidia.. even with their inflated prices. Why pay the same for less?

 

[TNA]

Turing production cost will be less than Navi. And Nvidia's profit margin is around 40% overall, so looks like AMd simply want to meet Nvidia's margins which makes sense.


But you are contradicting yourself. If Turing is priced so high because of large profit margins then it is incredibly simple for Nvidia to have a price war. Nvidia have already made billions on Turing, recompensed their R&D and can go about driving down AMD's market share even further if they wanted to.

If AMD significantly undercuts NVidia's prices, Nvidia can simply lower prices if it is having an effect on sales volume. But you will probably find that even if AMd comes in at a lower price point Nvidia's sales wont be impact, market share will stay the same, just AMD will make less profit and have less R&D budget in the future.

that is why AMD wont start a price war, because they are the only ones who will loose out big time.

Don’t always agree with your posts, but on this occasion I agree

 

[Davedree]

Turing production cost will be less than Navi. And Nvidia's profit margin is around 40% overall, so looks like AMd simply want to meet Nvidia's margins which makes sense.


But you are contradicting yourself. If Turing is priced so high because of large profit margins then it is incredibly simple for Nvidia to have a price war. Nvidia have already made billions on Turing, recompensed their R&D and can go about driving down AMD's market share even further if they wanted to.

If AMD significantly undercuts NVidia's prices, Nvidia can simply lower prices if it is having an effect on sales volume. But you will probably find that even if AMd comes in at a lower price point Nvidia's sales wont be impact, market share will stay the same, just AMD will make less profit and have less R&D budget in the future.

that is why AMD wont start a price war, because they are the only ones who will loose out big time.

Tu116 has already knocked out Polaris, with exception to the terrible value Rx590.
The rx570/580 have had to reduce heavily in price since Nvidia made them irrelevant at their previous pricepoints.
a lot of peple try to crap on the 1660ti for it's price and then dumbly ignore how well the 1660 scales with it's overclock, yet is the same price as an Rx590.

I said it at the 1660 launch, it is too suspicious for Nvidia to release the 1660/1660ti at it's intended pricepoints, it also has the potential to harm Navi if the performance targets aren't quite met.

 

[Calin Banc]

Historically, even when AMD have had outright better products that were also cheaper, Nvidia cards have still outsold them.

To be fair, they always managed to sabotage themselves with every occasion or have done things half way. There was no coherency in their plan and I'd say most of their problems come from that. nVIDIA just played the game better and speculated on AMD flaws.

 

[Troezar]

I think there are a few clues in current pricing and deals. Navi definitely won't rival Radeon VII, there has been no sell off prior to Navi release. Therefore it won't be in 2080 territory. Lower end cards are being reduced so it's likely they'll be replaced by Navi rather than sitting above them.

So we know Navi isn't going to compete on speed. It also isn't going to compete on power. It sounds, like the Radeon VII, like a shrink of the previous generation. The R7 was faster but at the expense of heat and noise. That really only leaves price, if they haven't worked a miracle then there is no way they can equal Nvidia on price.

I'd love to buy Navi but it would have to be a £350 2070 or a £500 2080 equivalent, minus the RT.

 

[4K8KW10]

Navi definitely won't rival Radeon VII

Navi will come very close to Radeon VII with smaller die size and lower power consumption.

So we know Navi isn't going to compete on speed. It also isn't going to compete on power.

It will compete both.

It sounds, like the Radeon VII, like a shrink of the previous generation.

Navi 10 is a heavily reworked, an all new architecture and it's very possible because of the 8 shader engines, it will get up to 128 ROPs which will dramatically improve its gaming performance.

 

[Troezar]

Navi will come very close to Radeon VII with smaller die size and lower power consumption.



It will compete both.



Navi 10 is a heavily reworked, an all new architecture and it's very possible because of the 8 shader engines, it will get up to 128 ROPs which will dramatically improve its gaming performance.

Fingers crossed you're right as it will make my decision much easier

 

[BigBANGtheory]

Less than 2080Ti not interested no matter the cost, good for AMD if they can win some middle ground (doesn't sound like it atm with Sapphire offering) but I wish them luck.

I still can't believe high end products are ******* about the sub 4k resolution market tbh. 980Ti Maxwell came out 4yrs ago and there is nothing on the market that doubles that performance + the closest thing to double is x2.5 the price what the actual ****

 

[Grim5]

980Ti Maxwell came out 4yrs ago and there is nothing on the market that doubles that performance

Huh?