The American Police

Speaking generally - There are a lot of problems with US policing which I won't even start to get into. Far from perfect.

However, I don't envy their job. They police a country and culture where everyone they deal with could be carrying any number of serious weapons. Both concealed and open carry

Sod that....
 
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From the ROE I get taught I would have shot when he was moving towards the woman with a knife (i mean when he went towards her, not just started moving). At that point and that point only there is a clear threat to life, before hand the verbal demands make sense. Also we're taught to only ever fire as many aimed shots as absolutely necessary.

On the other hand theyre also still screaming at him to drop the knife when hes had 18 bullets riddled into him, is clearly dead on the ground with the knife out of his hand already so who knows how they think. Nothing surprises me in america really.
 
JBod said:
A lot of arm chair experts here. The LAPD should call in the OCUK Arm Response Criticism Unit to advise on how best to manage their city. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'd like to see all you guys do your day job knowing that any mistake big or small could become footage that is criticised internationally by people who have no knowledge of the city, the people or the culture, let alone how to handle such a situation.

I feel sorry for the family of the disabled lady and I feel sorry for the officers involved that have to live knowing they took an innocent life while trying to do the right thing.

But sure, go ahead. Make wild guesses as to the accuracy of an entire Police force while forgetting he was cutting her neck and waving her around while there were many other by standers that didn't get hurt despite 16 bullets NOT hitting the hostage.

I don't think I have ever been more disgusted at this forum.
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Fortunately one doesn't need to have lived in LA in order to have an understanding of policing and the moral/legal/ethical considerations around police use of force.
 
JBod said:
I'd like to see all you guys do your day job knowing that any mistake big or small could become footage that is criticised internationally by people who have no knowledge of the city, the people or the culture, let alone how to handle such a situation.

[...]

I don't think I have ever been more disgusted at this forum.
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bit surprised by this, I guess perhaps living there you're too far gone if you can't understand why people would be critical of the actions of the police there

JBod said:
Life is not seen as "cheap" here
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It is unfortunately when compared to the UK both in regards to the threshold at which the police will be willing to use force (seemingly including shooting suspects in the back as they run away), the lack of accountability when they do so and the attitude/response from them after the shooting - In the UK an AFO will have first aid training specific to gun shot wounds and medical kit in the response vehicle, in the US it isn't uncommon to see police shooting footage where the police stand around doing nothing other than call for an ambulance as a suspect bleeds out

it isn't just shooting - the threshold for force seems to be lower in general, in the UK it seems that tazers are only issued to certain officers and their use is seemingly restricted to self defence, in the US they seem to be used for more casually, not just in self defence but also just used rather more casually for compliance
 
jsmoke said:
Different country, different culture, different demographics. Lot of ex military twitchy fingered paranoid people in their police.

To us it's unnecessary but to them that's how you have to do things.
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yeah, to us we just follow potential bombers for ages and let them get into crowded train stations before riddling them w/ bullets, or shoot up someone carrying a chair leg in a carrier bag.
 
wolfie138 said:
yeah, to us we just follow potential bombers for ages and let them get into crowded train stations before riddling them w/ bullets, or shoot up someone carrying a chair leg in a carrier bag.
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clutching at straws a bit tbh..

have UK armed place made mistakes in the past? - yup, sure they have

it is still a bit of a false equivalence
 
not clutching at all if it's a valid point. the amount of dubious shootings [including of their own training officers] and NDs is a disgrace. and that video doesn't even compare to the whole thomas hamilton affair does it?
 
wolfie138 said:
not clutching at all if it's a valid point
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No it isn't, it is an attempt to draw a false equivalence

have the UK police made mistakes in the past? Sure, so what? It isn't a reflection of their culture, rules of engagement, general attitudes towards the use of force being particularly comparable to that of US police forces.
 
Poor training which now seems to train them to fear for their lives in most situations and they escalate rather than deescalate. The fact that they can also legally rob is just icing on top of a completely broken system.
 
I watched a video a few times, haven't read any of the other comments but my view is this; (if anyone cares)

The major mistake was to turn up and waste time shouting at him, with guns drawn from a distance - with him clearly not obeying any commands he was instantly able to move around take that woman hostage.

By the time the police close in, he appears to make attempts to cut her throat - the second major mistake is to open fire on both the suspect and the hostage - killing both (wtf were they doing)

It seems that there's literally no common sense at all, just a "point gun, shout commands, then shoot" mentality, and they end up causing a disaster.

The US police rely on guns far too much, I don't see any reason why two fit strong officers with the correct training and equipment (stab vests, batons, taser) could quickly have overpowered and contained him - ok they might have suffered a few scuffs, bruises, cuts - but both the suspect and the hostage would still be alive.. The police are supposed to protect people, not turn them to swiss cheese.

I personally think the US police are big scaredy cats, they're useless without their guns - and useless with them.
 
Screeeech said:
I watched a video a few times, haven't read any of the other comments but my view is this; (if anyone cares)

The major mistake was to turn up and waste time shouting at him, with guns drawn from a distance - with him clearly not obeying any commands he was instantly able to move around take that woman hostage.

By the time the police close in, he appears to make attempts to cut her throat - the second major mistake is to open fire on both the suspect and the hostage - killing both (wtf were they doing)

It seems that there's literally no common sense at all, just a "point gun, shout commands, then shoot" mentality, and they end up causing a disaster.

The US police rely on guns far too much, I don't see any reason why two fit strong officers with the correct training and equipment (stab vests, batons, taser) could quickly have overpowered and contained him - ok they might have suffered a few scuffs, bruises, cuts - but both the suspect and the hostage would still be alive.. The police are supposed to protect people, not turn them to swiss cheese.

I personally think the US police are big scaredy cats, they're useless without their guns - and useless with them.
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Probably due to past experience, hundreds of cops are murdered every year.
 
The Running Man said:
However you look at it, a cop is there to protect the public. But if the cop is dead he can't protect anything so keeping himself alive to protect the public has to be the number 1 priority for himself.
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Not true as I posted before, a cop is there to deter and apprehended criminals, they have no constitutional duty to protect the public. Though those principles have probably become a bit skewed over time, in this country they act as social workers or in the cities, as human roadblocks.
 
jsmoke said:
Probably due to past experience, hundreds of cops are murdered every year.
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Being a police officer in the US is statistically not much more risky than many other jobs*, is in and out of the top 5 or 10 jobs for risk of murder and from memory not always in the top 10 jobs for risk overall.
It's also a bit muddied by how the US counts homicides, as I think in some cases they include what we would put down as manslaughter or death by dangerous driving.

IIRC the biggest risks to US law enforcement are things like dying in car accidents, and natural causes such as heart attacks on duty.

However some of the training they receive is quite bad, especially in smaller forces where some of the training materials can be extremely poor or non existent.
There is a real training video (aimed mainly at small forces that can't afford better) from the 90's where they're basically "everyone is trying to stab you, that youth over there will stab you, that black man over there, he'll stab you, that woman with the baby, she'll cut you up, that granny she'll gut you like a fish".


*IIRC taxi drivers are far more likely to be murdered whilst working.
 
Werewolf said:
Being a police officer in the US is statistically not much more risky than many other jobs*, is in and out of the top 5 or 10 jobs for risk of murder and from memory not always in the top 10 jobs for risk overall.
It's also a bit muddied by how the US counts homicides, as I think in some cases they include what we would put down as manslaughter or death by dangerous driving.

IIRC the biggest risks to US law enforcement are things like dying in car accidents, and natural causes such as heart attacks on duty.

However some of the training they receive is quite bad, especially in smaller forces where some of the training materials can be extremely poor or non existent.
There is a real training video (aimed mainly at small forces that can't afford better) from the 90's where they're basically "everyone is trying to stab you, that youth over there will stab you, that black man over there, he'll stab you, that woman with the baby, she'll cut you up, that granny she'll gut you like a fish".


*IIRC taxi drivers are far more likely to be murdered whilst working.
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I don't think they wear stab proof vests either. In the UK they pretty much all have them.
 
Tefal said:
No there's not.

Quick Google says on average 64 die in the line of duty a year in the USA due to foul play


Safer than being a builder
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I suspect he's been reading the "police officer death" numbers which are often quoted without people understanding how they are made up, from memory they include all deaths of police officers, be it murder, car accidents, heart attacks, being mauled by a bear etc.
 
Johno please? said:
Really? Pretty weird attitude, actually its probably not if the only information
about the US police you get is from the mainstream media. .
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Indeed, what a sad individual.
I holiday in the US every year and drive thousands of miles, and I have never had or witnessed any sort of incident, no shoot outs, no high speed chases.

Been stopped once or twice for, ahem, traffic stuff, and I have found the police officers polite, efficient and professional.
 
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