Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[estebanrey]

Can a Bremainer please explain to me to necessary link between the tariff free trade and the free movement of people? The gist I get from the pro-EU camp on free movement tends to be more of a "It's rubbish but a price everyone has to pay" one rather than one based on a positive case for the notion of free movement.

P.S. Yes I realise that pulling out of the EU won't guarantee another free movement deal won;t be signed anyway.

 

[itchy]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/66...goldman-sachs-citigroup-lord-owen-stuart-rose

"Data from the Electoral Commission shows American banking giants Citigroup and Morgan Stanley each gave a mammoth £250,000 to Britain Stronger in Europe.

The revelation comes after fellow US banks Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan each donated half a million pounds to the Eurocrat group before February."

Pmsl at the pro EU crowd!

You just don't get how the world works at all.

 

[ReltonBFD]

Bet quite a few of the remain crowd are the same people who was banking bashing a few year ago. It favours big business not the small fry

 

[Nate--IRL--]

I expect the Uk to vote out... only because the UK never really wanted to be in...

Sir Humphrey:Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?

Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch... The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

Nate

 

[ReltonBFD]

Yes, of course Minister Nate.

 

[Nate--IRL--]

Yes, of course Minister Nate.

Anyway - I still expect the UK to vote out.

Nate

 

[2013]

Im not too informed on the EU. what would really happen if we vote to leave ?
So far ive not seen any clear true info, its mostly PMs pushing there options on people who know nothing, if we win or loose we may not gain any benifets or not ateast for a number of years.
I'm Undecided but leaning towards staying but gaining more control and more benefits from the EU.

I need some real information, we never know the real reasons for PM's to do things, its always to benefit them not us, which should be kept in mind.


A Few things I would like to know

1. What do we gain from our currant membership ??

2. What would we loose if we leave ?

3. if we leave how long would things take to change ? a year, 10 years ?

4. How much control could we get back and how well would our PM's use it.
Im expecting it to be no better or even worse in some cases.

5. How would the Gov deal with the eastern Europeans, I'n my areas they are 98% EE gypsy people who are jobless, a strain on resources, not interested in knowing much and wonder around on the streets all day. This take away from people that need help, most people have now moved to other areas which is a shame.

6. How would rest of the EU treat us ?
Most of the time France and Germany already try to push us in a corner on most things, If we leave I'm assuming things would get worse.
im assuming boarders in Calais would be relaxed.

7. Would taking back control take us ahead of the pack like in the past ?
Would we do more things in the UK, would UK farming, engineering, technology, new products ext.
could we get back on par with the US in these and other areas, I think because we now get a lot from outside the UK we have a bit to lose.
This is what I want to see from the UK, but we could also do this without leaving.


8. if we have control would be do any better in this world ?
We still had a hand in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other country's, how would we do things if we had full control ?

9. if we vote to leave what would really happen ?

A. If we had full control in the past would things have turned out better ?
UK banks
recession.
open boarders
how laws are made
ext

10. in coming migrants how would they be dealt with ? what would be the difference if we leave ?

11. what benefits would the British people see ?

to me the bigger issues is open boarders. most the inbound of eastern Europeans gypsy's who are unwilling to work. learn or want to integrate, to me this is a disadvantage for us not a benefit, with the open boarder system we get a lot of unwanted people. if they would have tried to be a benefit for the country like all the past migrants it would not be a issue.

what would happen to them, would they be sent back, would they loose benefits, would the have min requirements to meet ??

This is not a xenophobic view in my option, I have no issue with anyone that benefits the community, its just annoying when some people just come in because they can and abuse the system then treat everything very poorly even the place they live. they do nothing with the chance they have in years, when other people who are dying to get even a minor chance. which most will agree with.

Could anyone with more knowledge give me some real facts ??

 

[danielanthony]

Im not too informed on the EU.
I'm Undecided but leaning towards staying but gaining more control and more benefits from the EU.

I need some real information, we never know the real reasons for PM's to do things, its always to benefit them not us, which should be kept in mind.

Few things I would like to know

1. What do we gain from our currant membership ??
to me the biggest issues is open boarders. most the inbound of eastern Europeans gypsy's who are unwilling to work. learn or want to integrate and work, to me this is a disadvantage for us not a benefit to the open boarder system. if they would have tried to benefit the country like all the past migrants it would not be a issue,

2. what would we loose if we leave ?
3. if we leave how long would things take to change ?
4. How much control could we get back and how well would our PM's use it.
5. How would the Gov deal with the eastern Europeans, I'n my areas they 98% EE people are jobless, a strain on resources, not interested in knowing much and wonder around on the streets all day. This take away from people that need help.
6. How would rest of the EU treat us ?
Most of the time France and Germany already try to push us in a corner on most things, If we leave I'm assuming things would get worse.
im assuming boarders in Calais would be relaxed.


Could anyone give me some real facts ??

There are no 'real facts' as this is totally new territory and all we know is based on best guesses and gut instinct.

Remember that we've been outside of the EU much longer than inside it, but people fear change and that's what will probably win this referendum.

 

[Tefal]

Im not too informed on the EU. what would really happen if we vote to leave ?
So far ive not seen any clear true info, its mostly PMs pushing there options on people who know nothing, if we win or loose we may not gain any benifets or not ateast for a number of years.
I'm Undecided but leaning towards staying but gaining more control and more benefits from the EU.

I need some real information, we never know the real reasons for PM's to do things, its always to benefit them not us, which should be kept in mind.


A Few things I would like to know

1. What do we gain from our currant membership ??

2. What would we loose if we leave ?

3. if we leave how long would things take to change ? a year, 10 years ?

4. How much control could we get back and how well would our PM's use it.
Im expecting it to be no better or even worse in some cases.

5. How would the Gov deal with the eastern Europeans, I'n my areas they are 98% EE gypsy people who are jobless, a strain on resources, not interested in knowing much and wonder around on the streets all day. This take away from people that need help, most people have now moved to other areas which is a shame.

6. How would rest of the EU treat us ?
Most of the time France and Germany already try to push us in a corner on most things, If we leave I'm assuming things would get worse.
im assuming boarders in Calais would be relaxed.

7. Would taking back control take us ahead of the pack like in the past ?
Would we do more things in the UK, would UK farming, engineering, technology, new products ext.
could we get back on par with the US in these and other areas, I think because we now get a lot from outside the UK we have a bit to lose.
This is what I want to see from the UK, but we could also do this without leaving.


8. if we have control would be do any better in this world ?
We still had a hand in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other country's, how would we do things if we had full control ?

9. if we vote to leave what would really happen ?

A. If we had full control in the past would things have turned out better ?
UK banks
recession.
open boarders
how laws are made
ext

10. in coming migrants how would they be dealt with ? what would be the difference if we leave ?

11. what benefits would the British people see ?

to me the bigger issues is open boarders. most the inbound of eastern Europeans gypsy's who are unwilling to work. learn or want to integrate, to me this is a disadvantage for us not a benefit, with the open boarder system we get a lot of unwanted people. if they would have tried to be a benefit for the country like all the past migrants it would not be a issue.

what would happen to them, would they be sent back, would they loose benefits, would the have min requirements to meet ??

This is not a xenophobic view in my option, I have no issue with anyone that benefits the community, its just annoying when some people just come in because they can and abuse the system then treat everything very poorly even the place they live. they do nothing with the chance they have in years, when other people who are dying to get even a minor chance. which most will agree with.

Could anyone with more knowledge give me some real facts ??

From the most basic day to day stuff.

If you order aomething from europe you may have to pau duty on it same as if you order from outside now.

If you go on holiday there you will have to get your pasport stamped.

 

[2013]

The 2 things above are not a issue in my option, I need to know as much as possible before I can make a choice.

all im hearing is we should leave nothing will change, we should stay we are better together.

its just what PMs want you to do (vote blue, vote red) with no real info on why.

Why should we do it, and do they have anything to back up what they are saying.
Its like any election, a lot of promises and nothing getting done in the end.

 

[Mr Jack]

Can a Bremainer please explain to me to necessary link between the tariff free trade and the free movement of people?

The necessary part of the link is that the EU has repeatedly made clear that it won't grant any country one without the other and multiple foreign leaders have made clear that this is the case with the EU.

It's a really fundamental part of the European vision of the single market.

The gist I get from the pro-EU camp on free movement tends to be more of a "It's rubbish but a price everyone has to pay" one rather than one based on a positive case for the notion of free movement.

On the contrary, it's the biggest and most important freedom we get from the EU. You, me, and everyone else with a British passport has the free right to live and work anywhere in Europe! This is an enormous broadening of our horizons that, alone, makes Bremain the clear winner.

It's also a huge benefit to the UK. Just yesterday, the London School of Economics published yet another study emphasising the extent to which immigration benefits the UK and showing that immigration doesn't negatively impact UK workers, adding to the large and growing body of research showing the same thing.

Free movement isn't something rubbish that is the price to pay for free trade, it's a huge benefit for Britain and the British people.

 

[Mr Jack]

Has everyone seen Vote.Leave's spectacular toys-out-of-the-pram tantrum because ITV have had the gall to set up a debate between Cameron and Farage, look at this quote:

"The Establishment has tried everything from spending taxpayers money on pro-EU propaganda to funding the IN campaign via Goldsman Sachs.

"The polls have stayed fifty fifty. They're now fixing the debates to shut out the official campaign.

"ITV is led by people like Robert Peston who campaigned for Britain to join the euro.

"ITV has lied to us in private while secretly stitching up a deal with Cameron to stop Boris Johnson or Michael Gove debating the issues properly.

"ITV has effectively joined the official IN campaign and there will be consequences for its future - the people in No10 won't be there for long".​

Spectacular! (Incidentally, it isn't true that Preston campaigned for the Euro, and Vote.Leave's pretence of being "anti-establishment" is hilarious).

 

[2013]

London School of Economics study, it's either wrong, not fully researched or it does not reflect the same in the north.

Nothing In our location seams to confirm what the study says.

 

[Amp34]

The 2 things above are not a issue in my option, I need to know as much as possible before I can make a choice.

all im hearing is we should leave nothing will change, we should stay we are better together.

its just what PMs want you to do (vote blue, vote red) with no real info on why.

Why should we do it, and do they have anything to back up what they are saying.
Its like any election, a lot of promises and nothing getting done in the end.

A huge amount may change, or it may not. No one really knows. The Brexit side paint a rosy picture of leaving, largely based on everything going their way (if they can even agree on that, for example Gove wanting to leave the free trade area as well as the EU) whereas the remain side can point out that much of what Brexit want to happen may not actually happen.

It may be that leaving causes a recession caused in part by the reduction in trade and services, immigration to and from europe, companies not setting up warehouses and factories in the UK any more because it may involve tariffs to export to europe. Or it may be that growth accelerates and the UK becomes better off.

No one really knows. Unless there is something specific you want that you believe certainly will or won't happen if we stay in or leave the in reality you can just pick and choose which news articles you believe are "correct" to back up your opinion.

It's one of the reasons a second referendum, happening after any deal is reached with the EU (including such things as trade, free movement, laws etc) is such a good idea. Vote to stay or leave, then if vote to leave negotiate, then put that vote to another referendum and people can decide if they are happy with it (for example it being close to what the leave campaign promised).

 

[Amp34]

London School of Economics study, it's either wrong, not fully researched or it does not reflect the same in the north.

Nothing In our location seams to confirm what the study says.

Local anecdotal evidence trumps detailed study by top University.

Read all about it in the OcUK morning papers...

 

[Chris Wilson]

Local anecdotal evidence trumps detailed study by top University.

Read all about it in the OcUK morning papers...

Corrupt known hot bed of left wing, multi national activists, with a history of anti establishment protest could very easily be trumped by local anecdotal information:

"Calhoun's predecessor, Sir Howard Davies stepped down after controversy regarding the school's links to the Libyan regime. In February 2011, LSE had to face the consequences of awarding a PhD to Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, one of Muammar Gaddafi's sons, while accepting a £1.5m donation to the university from his family.

In March 2011, Howard Davies resigned over allegations about the institution's links to the Libyan regime.[56] The LSE announced in a statement that it had accepted his resignation with "great regret" and that it had set up an external inquiry into the school's relationship with the Libyan regime and Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, to be conducted by the former lord chief justice Harry Woolf.

In August 2015, it was revealed that the university was paid approximately £40,000 for a "glowing report" for Camila Batmanghelidjh's scandal-hit charity, Kids Company.[57] The study was used by Batmanghelidjh to prove that the charity provided good value for money and was well managed. However, the university did not disclose that the study was funded by the charity and claims made by the report have since been discredited."

 

[2013]

Local anecdotal evidence trumps detailed study by top University.

Read all about it in the OcUK morning papers...

I agree, It can be the same as what a MP says.

If its not true in our area it does not make a difference.

also having people from 8-9 country's in one groups kind of taints the results.

if people from 6-7 country's work and the people from the remaining do nothing.

 

[datalol-jack]

Ah, and so the mask slips! Tarring all people that vote for Brexit with the same brush - bad form indeed. I thought you were better than that.

...

If you didn't need their vote, it wouldn't be schadenfreude.

 

[datalol-jack]

Can a Bremainer please explain to me to necessary link between the tariff free trade and the free movement of people? The gist I get from the pro-EU camp on free movement tends to be more of a "It's rubbish but a price everyone has to pay" one rather than one based on a positive case for the notion of free movement.

P.S. Yes I realise that pulling out of the EU won't guarantee another free movement deal won;t be signed anyway.

Short version: human capital must flow.

Long version:
It's a freedom to travel, live, study, work, do business and retire, under a reasonable framework of stable, common and uniform regulation and assurances, anywhere in the EU -- being treated as an equal under the law, whatever your destination.

Not only does it promote wider travel, cultural exchange and goodwill between people in the EU, it's also integral in assuring quick and competitive access to a large, young and,yes, skilled labour pool right across the continent to the economies that need it; cutting non-tariff barriers to trade and paperwork hurdles to collaborative scientific reasearch and growth of service-based economies.

Over the years, it's become linked to practical measures ranging anywhere from the way businesses can set up and operate across borders in the EU, to the ERASMUS exchanges and single market regulation. Considering the concept in its EU formulation (generalisation of a human right, anyway) emerged from the legacy of concentration camps, the Iron Curtain and people being prevented from voting with their feet in the not so distant European past -- it's been a massive step forward; especially in giving an entire generation a means to recognise and participate in this whole Europe thing as a shared future, not a broken past; where cooperation and compromise can achieve what the cyclical bloodletting and piecemeal sets of multilateral treaties had failed to do: stable trade, collective influence and increased rights of the individual.

In less grand terms: nobody in the EU would be willing to spend money, time and effort ripping this core freedom out of the treaties to give one or two members a special ride. Cue the mooted Canada-style deal by Gove et al.

 

[Metallifux]

Recent as in this recent scrap. The thread cycles roughly every ten pages, between the usual suspects, as others did before it. If you plan to ride it long, I recommend a good bourbon.

Both campaigns and the Lords and the Commons committees have long since moved on. Hence the latest battle in the media on "our role in Europe" against "the negatives of immigration".

And as for political bouts, the next debate I know of will be held on Thursday next week. More specials in June. Not currently seeing Dave vs Boris (they both have the future of the Conservative party to ponder), but it might yet happen.

Is that the one which ended with me not bothering to respond to the "Oh but they also pay VAT" The tax that everyone pays, even people solely on benefits. The one the EU says can't be less than 15%. Yeah thanks EU.