Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 522 41.6%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 733 58.4%

  • Total voters
    1,255
  • Poll closed .
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My relation who is in the Met tells me they have quietly had a little group of 15 coppers and civilians set up for 2 months to work out how they're going to deal with the expected large scale civil disobedience in the event of an almost certain In vote.
Manchester, Birmingham, leeds and other places have all set up small teams which will be massively increased in the 2 weeks or so before polling day.
 
Soldato
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My relation who is in the Met tells me they have quietly had a little group of 15 coppers and civilians set up for 2 months to work out how they're going to deal with the expected large scale civil disobedience in the event of an almost certain In vote.
Manchester, Birmingham, leeds and other places have all set up small teams which will be massively increased in the 2 weeks or so before polling day.

Seems pretty unrealistic but I suppose the Police have to prepare for these eventualities
 
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People with degrees are more likely to be young, as you say, so it's more of just an age question rather than level of education. I'm 29 and voting out, but most people I know my age are remain. IMO it's because they don't know the issues that well, and tend to believe the EU is some sort of benevolent, liberal common mission that can safely guide us forward from Brussels. Once you look into it and realise what it's actually all about you're likely to change your mind.

Id disagree with that. If you're getting much of your information from the sun, mail and express then id argue you aren't getting a full, well opinioned view. Looking at the data on the last page those that read those papers are much more likely to vote out than others. They are also the papers that have a demographic that generally consists of a lower educated readership.

That's ignoring the telegraph, but that is staunchly conservative and anti EU. Obviously there is a good argument to say that the papers are writing to please their readerships, so as to get more sales, so it could be swings and roundabouts there.

Some young people may not know much about the inner workings of the EU but considering most of the remainders in this thread are under 40 and are generally showing a very high level of knowledge I don't believe your last sentence to be accurate. As said before let's not suggest young people are only voting in because they don't know enough. You could make the same argument for many of the brexit crowd in this thread, with links to the council of Europe, human rights and various incorrect migrant and immigration "facts".

As for age and education, it could quite possibly be a mix of both.
 
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Caporegime
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I'm not sure if you understand how politics works in the real world but all of the above people do favours for each other, it's how the world works. David Cameron is fighting for his career now more than staying in the EU, he's completely willing to lie and get his friends to say what ever they're able to if it means not having to resign and leave office in shame

Whereas one of the figureheads of the out campaign isn't?

http://gu.com/p/4j7nz?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Boris Johnson has been accused by the grandson of Winston Churchill – the Tory MP Nicholas Soames – of “fundamentally dishonest gymnastics” for criticising a planned multibillion pound EU-US trade deal which he previously lauded as “Churchillian” for its brilliance.

Politicians going to politician... :D
 
Soldato
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Id disagree with that. If you're getting much of your information from the sun, mail and express then id argue you aren't getting a full, well opinioned view. Looking at the data on the last page those that read those papers are much more likely to vote out than others. They are also the papers that have a demographic that generally consists of a lower educated readership.

That's ignoring the telegraph, but that is staunchly conservative and anti EU. Obviously there is a good argument to say that the papers are writing to please their readerships, so as to get more sales, so it could be swings and roundabouts there.

All newspapers and media outlets are biased, it's just easier to pick on The Sun, DM, and Express. I wouldn't even consider The Sun "news", it's dumbed down current affairs with the focus on outrageous stories for entertainment value. The Guardian is obviously massively biased towards their target demographic of left wing hipster
 
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...

So how about we stop listening to jumped-up backbenchers, cranks and conspiracy nuts, and start listening to our allies, experts, our actual government and independent regulatory bodies? The latter hold an enormous influence over our future, democracy, prosperity and security, the former do not.

Perhaps we are all idiots, I just happen to like sensible idiots better. :p
Presumably those would include the same independent bodies many of which receive millions, or tens of millions, of Euros funding from the EU?

The same independent bodies, by the way, all of which use similar economic models all of which are modelling exit ramifications based on assumptions of effects, where the assumptions have absolutely no basis in historical data because a situation like an economy the size of the UK has never left a political union like the EU.

Or would it be the same independent body chaired by a former French finance minister? And would that be the same France that, if we leave, is going to find itself facing a substantial increase in contributions, or an EU having to make substantial cuts in it's spending, if it loses the UK net contributions?

And for that matter, the same former French finance minister that is and long has been part of the same establishment elite that shoved the EU on us in the first place without bothering go ask? The same elite that's so fond of sneering down their noses at rising levels of discontent, for various reasons, among a lot of EU countries and dismissing it as fascistic right wing, when in reality the only way it gets to be anything like large enough to be more than a noisy protest movement is if very large numbers of the population are prepared to vote for it, even if some of it is hard right. And some far left. Large enough, by the way, to be putting the next French Presidential election in doubt.

The same establishment elite that ignored the wishes of the people, in elections, and imposed a technocrat to run Italy, and shoved a bailout down the Greek's throats despite an anti-austerity party winning the election.

Or the same actual government that one month is telling us we can cope quite admirably, thank you very much, if we leave, which the PM will support unless he gets substantive reform, and then after getting a handful of minor amendments the legal enforceability of most of which is highly questionable at a minimum, is telling us it'll be economic catastrophe, or military Armageddon, or both, if we leave the protective arms of the EU. On which mutually exclusive occasion was our esteemed PM talking through his anatomical exhaust pipe?

Many of these supposedly authoritative experts, by the way, are the same ones that made similarly dire predictions of economic doom if the UK didn't join the Euro, and I can't think of any serious economists, or not more than a politically dogmatic indivual or two, prepared to seriously argue now that it would have been good for the UK if we had.

None of the economic bodies, politicians or individuals know what would happen post-Brexit, and that includes both sides. But few if any of those predicting economic disaster if we leave bother to tell us what their models predict if we stay in, with 26 out of 28 current EU members either in or treaty-obliged to join the Euro, when those 26 start ramming through economic measures designed to suit the 26, regardless of their effect on the UK.

They all imply, by omission at least, that the outlook is disaster if we leave, when that's nothing more than a modelling prediction based on assumptions they won't tell us, but the economic status quo if we don't, when the reality is that the EU is evolving, politically as well as economically, and the economic status quo is not an option.

Leaving has risks and, short-term at least, probably costs. But so does staying in, and those trying to bowbeat, scare and intimidate voters into staying never put any figures on the impact of EU evolution. If they're so damned prescient about the impact of one unknown and untested scenario, namely leaving, then they ought to be able to be prescient about the other, staying in an evolving EU.

Oh, and listen carefully to what these economic Cassandras say, even the likes of Carney, and it's "could" this, and "might" that. Well, the Euro "could" collapse, EU banks "could" implode, or a number of EU states "might" vote in anti-EU governments and the whole edifice shatters. Or we "could" get wiped out by a giant meteor impact, we "might" be saved from such by a benevolent, passing alien race, or the whole thing "might" be rendered academic by the 2nd Coming of Christ and a biblical "Revelation".
 
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Soldato
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I don't see rejoining as an option either to be honest. It's either remain now and do our bit (to help improve things) or leave forever. We can't/shouldn't jump in and out when it suits us.

I will look more closely at the details but from a very high level I feel this is not something we should be backing out of. Lets stay and do our bit to help make the EU work/work better.

Thinking about what's best for our country, our kids (not just the here and now and our own immediate needs) I think staying in is the better option. As I said I'll research more closely the finer details.

Reading today about the stock market and house prices crashing if we leave I thought to myself "great, the lot that Labour helped breed will likely vote us out" just for that :D
 
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Presumably those would include the same independent bodies many of which receive millions, or tens of millions, of Euros funding from the EU?

The same independent bodies, by the way, all of which use similar economic models all of which are modelling exit ramifications based on assumptions of effects, where the assumptions have absolutely no basis in historical data because a situation like an economy the size of the UK has never left a political union like the EU.

Or would it be the same independent body chaired by a former French finance minister? And would that be the same France that, if we leave, is going to find itself facing a substantial increase in contributions, or an EU having to make substantial cuts in it's spending, if it loses the UK net contributions?

And for that matter, the same former French finance minister that is and long has been part of the same establishment elite that shoved the EU on us in the first place without bothering go ask? The same elite that's so fond of sneering down their noses at rising levels of discontent, for various reasons, among a lot of EU countries and dismissing it as fascistic right wing, when in reality the only way it gets to be anything like large enough to be more than a noisy protest movement is if very large numbers of the population are prepared to vote for it, even if some of it is hard right. And some far left. Large enough, by the way, to be putting the next French Presidential election in doubt.

The same establishment elite that ignored the wishes of the people, in elections, and imposed a technocrat to run Italy, and shoved a bailout down the Greek's throats despite an anti-austerity party winning the election.

Or the same actual government that one month is telling us we can cope quite admirably, thank you very much, if we leave, which the PM will support unless he gets substantive reform, and then after getting a handful of minor amendments the legal enforceability of most of which is highly questionable at a minimum, is telling us it'll be economic catastrophe, or military Armageddon, or both, if we leave the protective arms of the EU. On which mutually exclusive occasion was our esteemed PM talking through his anatomical exhaust pipe?

Many of these supposedly authoritative experts, by the way, are the same ones that made similarly dire predictions of economic doom if the UK didn't join the Euro, and I can't think of any serious economists, or not more than a politically dogmatic indivual or two, prepared to seriously argue now that it would have been good for the UK if we had.

None of the economic bodies, politicians or individuals know what would happen post-Brexit, and that includes both sides. But few if any of those predicting economic disaster if we leave bother to tell us what their models predict if we stay in, with 26 out of 28 current EU members either in or treaty-obliged to join the Euro, when those 26 start ramming through economic measures designed to suit the 26, regardless of their effect on the UK.

They all imply, by omission at least, that the outlook is disaster if we leave, when that's nothing more than a modelling prediction based on assumptions they won't tell us, but the economic status quo if we don't, when the reality is that the EU is evolving, politically as well as economically, and the economic status quo is not an option.

Leaving has risks and, short-term at least, probably costs. But so does staying in, and those trying to bowbeat, scare and intimidate voters into staying never put any figures on the impact of EU evolution. If they're so damned prescient about the impact of one unknown and untested scenario, namely leaving, then they ought to be able to be prescient about the other, staying in an evolving EU.

Oh, and listen carefully to what these economic Cassandras say, even the likes of Carney, and it's "could" this, and "might" that. Well, the Euro "could" collapse, EU banks "could" implode, or a number of EU states "might" vote in anti-EU governments and the whole edifice shatters. Or we "could" get wiped out by a giant meteor impact, we "might" be saved from such by a benevolent, passing alien race, or the whole thing "might" be rendered academic by the 2nd Coming of Christ and a biblical "Revelation".

 

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Soldato
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I don't see rejoining as an option either to be honest. It's either remain now and do our bit (to help improve things) or leave forever. We can't/shouldn't jump in and out when it suits us.

I will look more closely at the details but from a very high level I feel this is not something we should be backing out of. Lets stay and do our bit to help make the EU work/work better.

Thinking about what's best for our country, our kids (not just the here and now and our own immediate needs) I think staying in is the better option. As I said I'll research more closely the finer details.

Reading today about the stock market and house prices crashing if we leave I thought to myself "great, the lot that Labour helped breed will likely vote us out" just for that :D

Do our bit? The EU doesn't want reform or for it to work better. It will continue to do what it wants and for those who is in power. Nothing else.

The EU isn't about making the country better. It has no intention for that.
 
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Do our bit? The EU doesn't want reform or for it to work better. It will continue to do what it wants and for those who is in power. Nothing else.

The EU isn't about making the country better. It has no intention for that.
Exactly. Considering the referendum was out best chance to get reform and consensus on changes needed to be done to the EU and they blew it then what is the likelihood of us alone changing the EU how we want it to be changed over the next 20 or so years? It ignores the weak referendum compromises, ignores the past increases in EU power and ignores the fact we're lacking leadership that wants to resist EU push anyway or has the ability to switch it around (I doubt Corbyn or cameron will get much more done) but the logic from remain advocates is that we'll suddenly change the system from the inside. The referendum was our best chance, it's fair to say we failed.

In fact, which bremainers have these future reading spectacles on and can promise there won't be a domino effect of referendums or new find desire for some changes (not referendums but just renewed policy chasing) among all the other countries that leads to further push and pull away from the desired objectives? Are we the only ones wanting change badly or has that recent poll about euro country residents wanting change a highlight of future changes to come?
 
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Exactly. Considering the referendum was out best chance to get reform and consensus on changes needed to be done to the EU and they blew it then what is the likelihood of us alone changing the EU how we want it to be changed over the next 20 or so years?

What on earth makes you think the referendum is the best chance for change? To get change you need to build consensus over years, turning up and threatening to take your ball and go home while the other EU nations have rather more pressing issues to deal with was never going to be a good strategy for securing change.
 
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What on earth makes you think the referendum is the best chance for change? To get change you need to build consensus over years, turning up and threatening to take your ball and go home while the other EU nations have rather more pressing issues to deal with was never going to be a good strategy for securing change.
Partly because we had more leverage than usual because it would mean a net contributor and decent size member leaving. We don't usually have that leverage. Not to mention it was a big point where clearly we was in the driving seat and moving several policies at once rather than trickle down policy over 20 or 30 years with changing leaders and whatnot causing a lack of consistency. Another point is that it came during migration and financial crisis so they no doubt wanted to wrap it up quick. When will we have such leverage to get changes again or do you think the eu just bends around our finger when we ask? It was our best chance regardless of what you feel, you honestly think the next 20 or 30 years of inconsistent policy driving by several different prime ministers will get far more done then? You honestly believe we will achieve more within even 15 or 20 years? What time frame are you really looking at for your positivity?
 

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Soldato
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Exactly. Considering the referendum was out best chance to get reform and consensus on changes needed to be done to the EU and they blew it then what is the likelihood of us alone changing the EU how we want it to be changed over the next 20 or so years? It ignores the weak referendum compromises, ignores the past increases in EU power and ignores the fact we're lacking leadership that wants to resist EU push anyway or has the ability to switch it around (I doubt Corbyn or cameron will get much more done) but the logic from remain advocates is that we'll suddenly change the system from the inside. The referendum was our best chance, it's fair to say we failed.

If Cameron knew he was going to win the General Election there would have been no referendum.
 
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Partly because we had more leverage than usual because it would mean a net contributor and decent size member leaving. We don't usually have that leverage.

"If you don't give me what I want I'll take my ball and go home" is not the strong negotiating position you seem to imagine. Doubly so when you can't even promise you'll stay even when you get what you want.

Not to mention it was a big point where clearly we was in the driving seat and moving several policies at once rather than trickle down policy over 20 or 30 years with changing leaders and whatnot causing a lack of consistency.

This is actually a fairly key point: there isn't a set of British aims in the UK we're working towards, there is only the agenda of the current administration.

Another point is that it came during migration and financial crisis so they no doubt wanted to wrap it up quick. When will we have such leverage to get changes again or do you think the eu just bends around our finger when we ask?

Acting like a spoilt child when the EU has better things to do didn't endear us to them. I doubt it helped our negotiating position at all. And, no, I don't think that other countries will "bend around our finger when we ask", I think that achieving our goals in Europe requires patient diplomacy and consensus building. Not as showy as Cameron's "renegotiation" but a lot more effective.

You honestly believe we will achieve more within even 15 or 20 years? What time frame are you really looking at for your positivity?

Yes, just as we've achieved far more than Cameron achieved with his stunt in the last 15 or 20 years; we'll achieve far more in the next 15 or 20 years. It won't be showy but it will be effective. More than anything we need our leaders, and our country, to engage more sensibly in Europe; it's impossible to achieve goals when you can't define those goals and you don't engage in the process needed to achieve those goals.
 
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If Cameron knew he was going to win the General Election there would have been no referendum.

It occurs to me that this is the third referendum that Cameron has held in his time as PM in which he is recommending that the public reject the thing the referendum is being held to decide. That takes a special kind of incompetence.
 
Soldato
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How the pro EU crowd find the time to post is unbelievable, its full on...........

hz1mAql.gif.png

You lot are afraid of something that's for sure. :D
 
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It's amazing how the left are falling over themselves to support the IMF and big business multinationals. We've got U.S. Investment banks funding the Remain campaign and Corbyn of all people bigging them up.
 
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