Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 522 41.6%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 733 58.4%

  • Total voters
    1,255
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Man of Honour
Joined
24 Sep 2005
Posts
35,636
I'm attending a seminar tomorrow for professionals (banks / lawyers / agents etc) on the likely changes and risks - should be interesting!

I went to this talk just now. A few key points before I forget. The speaker was clear that the talk had to be devoid of political views so asked us to keep that in mind.

- The speaker, Walter Boettcher - Director of Research and Financing at Collier's, said the talk was almost pointless because there was little chance of us leaving.
- The question was whether the long term benefits out weight the short term risks, in light of the uncertainty.
- He then listed the short term risks which he said were realistic. It was..... Baaaaaaad. 'Technical' recession likely at the very least, £ probably going to drop 10-15% on international markets, likely to affect financing, interest rates likely to increase to protect the £, knock on effects on employment, resi property markets most likely to see a downturn over a 2-3 year period. US investment likely to decrease. Just general doom and gloom.
- Very interesting discussion on over statements of the impact of the brexit. UK will survive whatever happens, tourism industry and export industries to UK unlikely to change, unlikely to see banks etc relocate due to locations of work forces, even if some places 'brass plate' their head office locations probably not much of an affect on that, property markets will pick back up as long term investors look at buy up cheap.
- He said that the economic effect of migrants to the Uk was net positive to the tune of £3 billion a year, although that was not necessarily offset by relationship with the EU (as in, that is before any EU financing is taken to account) but immigration is generally good and bolsters the UK working population.
- Controlled migration is a good thing. The U.K. Man on the street is predominantly concerned by "pockets" of minorities that are of concern. Very interesting stories about the Calais camps his wife had been to and an obvious split between genuine refugees and dangerous economic migrants who were extremely agressive. He thought it was unfortunate timing of the referendum as the refugee crisis was clouding the economic arguments this was supposed to be about.

Just was pretty interesting, thought I'd share.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Apr 2004
Posts
4,375
Location
Oxford
No no, I meant that Osbourne isn't mildly Autistic, he is just plain creepy. He has the expression and charisma of a lung fish, and a comparable intelligence to boot.


My brother has proper Autism and I have friends with different levels of Aspergers, and I've never considered any of them creepy.

Ah that's ok then :)
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
6,306
Sorry, threads too big to read it all.

I've just watched Brexit the Movie, can anyone point me in the direction of some counter material?

If you like discussions between the two camps: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...zWNBk9/the-big-questions-on-the-eu-referendum.

If you want fact-checks: https://fullfact.org/europe/.

If you want thoughtful research on Brexit: http://ner.sagepub.com/. Click on the cover.

And don't forget the select committees from Parliament directly:
http://www.parliament.uk/hleu
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...iament-2015/uks-eu-referendum-evidence-15-16/
 
Associate
Joined
3 Jan 2010
Posts
1,379
Britains very good at that integration thing ...
http://news.sky.com/story/1696898/hundreds-of-pupils-hidden-in-illegal-schools


seems cameron was negotiating with people before the referendum even took place to get them to put brexit in there list of risks for business growth. Not necessarily because they believed it but just because.
http://news.sky.com/story/1697273/bosses-told-to-warn-workers-of-brexit-risks

Also tusk thinks it's EU or chaos.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36314814

I actually like the EU (somewhat, so many issues with it but it's obvious it brings some benefits) but I hate when people lie to try and make it sound good. Saying it brought us years of peace after we already ended the war and it failed to do anything in the Bosnia issues, saying that britain is leaving europe is we don't stay in the EU despite the fact we'd still trade and have large political ties and a world focused view as always, saying putin and isis will like if we leave even though isis doesn't give 2 craps and putin might care but it's a far stretch to imagine him doing anything real about it any more, people pretending the EU is super democratic when the quality of democracy is quite poor as it feels very far removed from the people and is just another layer of governance that is ouside peoples normal political news following. People saying it's making us safer when it's not done anything of the sort. It's really strange that despite the EU actually being pretty successful at what it does that it seems people lack such confidence in the EU that they have to exaggerate and misinform others about the benefits and virtues of it just to try and make it sound better. I'm unsure which way to vote to be honest, politically I think it's a big mess with a few good bits that have stood out so they get touted as great examples yet overall the system still has a few issues (it's clear with trade delays over every small issue, citizens initiave being 4 years of failure, the pulling away of sovereignity, lack of compromise etc.). It seems to work well for research, for laws that span all countries etc. and unifying some good human rights etc. but it's also overbearing in that respect such as not being able to deport criminals, it's failures in regards to tax dodging such as the law that prevented us charging tax from companies in certain EU countries, it's practices on pushing us against heavy taxing (which was being used to promote a healthier society until the EU decided to penalize us for 'unfair' overtaxing on smoking and alcohol) etc. I am still torn as it has some benefits and the economic impact could be big but if the EU wasn't such a mess of a system in over beurocratic policy making and forcing top down tax and migration laws etc. it'd be a lot easier to get behind.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
2 Aug 2004
Posts
4,288
Location
The moon
I struggle to believe a campaign when their headline claim is based on an over-generalised fib at best, and when you dig into it (and print it in size 5000 font on the side of the bus) is basically a lie.

Never mind when their chief cheerleader can't help but repeatedly make false statements in order to stir up hatred for EU laws.

This is a terribly fought campaign on both sides; however, say what you like about the fear campaign, but only one side seems to repeatedly change their mind on the way forward and make false statements that are repeatedly debunked in order to gain support.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
3 Jan 2010
Posts
1,379
I struggle to believe a campaign when their headline claim is based on an over-generalised fib at best, and when you dig into it (and print it in size 5000 font on the side of the bus) is basically a lie.

Never mind when their chief cheerleader can't help but repeatedly make false statements in order to stir up hatred for EU laws.

This is a terribly fought campaign on both sides; however, say what you like about the fear campaign, but only one side seems to repeatedly change their mind on the way forward and make false statements that are repeatedly debunked in order to gain support.
And you trust the prime minister and his in campaign who said he'd get migration down to 10's of thousands yet was knowingly lying due to lack of control in any measure on migration thanks to the EU? You can't compare lies about bananas to lies about economic ability (like when he said we would be fine outside the EU all the way until after the referendum and all of a sudden it's chaos outside), migration, security and everything else.

There's been enough lies in the remain camp as well so you have to ignore the fluff on either side rather than make a dishonest argument that biases it against one side by proclaiming they are the only ones giving out misinformation. As far as I've seen I've felt more misled by the in camp who also make the regular claim that we're leaving 'europe and our allies' if we vote out of the EU despite that being the biggest and most false fabrication you can imagine. Our island isn't sailing anywhere, we're not adopting north korean nationalistic isoltion, we're not ending trade or turning our backs on allies and we'd do everything we normally functionally do to aid any ally in need through trade and Nato military intervention anyway. Not to mention them saying Isis would love us to leave while the EU comission readily acknowledges letting in turkey will expose us further to terror.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-increase-risk-of-terrorist-attacks-eu-repo/

Not to mention the fact Cameron and pals keep referring to it as a reformed EU based on policies that haven't even been agreed yet and that didn't meet half the criteria he had been saying needed to be reformed for years. We also have the regular lie that the EU brought us years of peace as if there was any real want for war after the EU and it's construction after the war merely positioned it to take the credit and ignore any logical respect for the bosnian fighting where the EU did nothing. You won't find an entirely honest debate on either side, cameron was even pushing the brexit case before he had got the deal started so his allegiances are entirely questionable at this point.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
3 Jan 2010
Posts
1,379
If you like discussions between the two camps: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...zWNBk9/the-big-questions-on-the-eu-referendum.

If you want fact-checks: https://fullfact.org/europe/.

If you want thoughtful research on Brexit: http://ner.sagepub.com/. Click on the cover.

And don't forget the select committees from Parliament directly:
http://www.parliament.uk/hleu
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...iament-2015/uks-eu-referendum-evidence-15-16/
that top link seems pretty useful, only watched the first one so far but it does help highlight some of the wastefulness of the EU. Pretty grim how they throw away that kind of money on travel, chauffeurs, the lost amount on fraud being 10x higher than UK government (still only 0.2% but 10x higher still) and wanting extra gyms etc. I feel overall though they make good points that you'd not really be able to guarantee the UK would take over there funding for all projects that are currently done by the EU. In that regard I feel I actually do trust the EU on the infrastructure / research spending. The 22 months to get policy through (on average) compared to america's 8 or 9 months suggests there is a big issue with slow and poor reaction speed within the EU system as well. Big issues like environmental policy are a lot better being across the board though as well.

I'll say it again, if only the EU didn't have so many issues and obsessions with taking sovereignity where it's not needed then it'd be so much easier :p I'll watch a few of those vids though and I recommend people watch them as well, the first one was quite a good debate. EU strikes me as good ideas with a bit of flawed execution, it'll take a lot of fixing to get it to work as well as it should but if it's the right step then is it worth waiting 40 years or 80 years? Even if it's not fully likely to ever rid itself of the very slow processes. Can we afford to be so inflexible and politically burdened in the future though? On the other hand can we afford to avoid raising standards across all of europe and improving our human rights, economic and environmental issues? For everything I like about the EU there is something wrong with it which is why it's so hard to decide.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
23 Mar 2009
Posts
2,014
Location
Peterborough
In at the moment, I'm really not convinced either way though, I could easily be swayed to leave. If I'm really honest I'm not sure I care anymore. Fed up of all the blatant lies though. The economics arguments are beginning to grate a little too. In my opinion it's impossible to know how the economy will pan out over any significant period of time as has been aptly demonstrated over recent years and that's without the Brexit uncertainty. I'll be damned if anyone actually knows what's going to happen economically if we go. As such I've given up caring about that element of the argument.

I'll be weighing up issues such as re-gained sovereignty and border control (maybe dependent on deal), increased flexibility, potential to better engage with other nations outside of the EU versus my own personal convenience of being in the EU (I travel and work abroad including the EU), the EU's potential ability to tackle multi-national issues (except immigration, it's doing a poor job of that), the possible resulting isolationism and reduced influence. Plus the simple question of do I trust EU bureaucrats or our elected MP's more? I don't particularly trust either really.

hmmm........ reading that back I really have become quite cynical in my old age
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Mar 2011
Posts
4,908
In at the moment, I'm really not convinced either way though, I could easily be swayed to leave. If I'm really honest I'm not sure I care anymore. Fed up of all the blatant lies though. The economics arguments are beginning to grate a little too. In my opinion it's impossible to know how the economy will pan out over any significant period of time as has been aptly demonstrated over recent years and that's without the Brexit uncertainty. I'll be damned if anyone actually knows what's going to happen economically if we go. As such I've given up caring about that element of the argument.

I'll be weighing up issues such as re-gained sovereignty and border control (maybe dependent on deal), increased flexibility, potential to better engage with other nations outside of the EU versus my own personal convenience of being in the EU (I travel and work abroad including the EU), the EU's potential ability to tackle multi-national issues (except immigration, it's doing a poor job of that), the possible resulting isolationism and reduced influence. Plus the simple question of do I trust EU bureaucrats or our elected MP's more? I don't particularly trust either really.

Confusion and delusion! Governments love it and play on it. ;)
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Jun 2012
Posts
11,259
If anything the economy would get better if we left, to say it wouldn't is nonsense, companies exist to flog their products to whomever. As someone posted above, I also find it hard to really care anymore also. According to the Brexit docu, trade agreements are few and far between for most countries and mean very little for the ones that have them, still have to abide by individual countries rules.
 

V F

V F

Soldato
Joined
13 Aug 2003
Posts
21,184
Location
UK
If anything the economy would get better if we left, to say it wouldn't is nonsense, companies exist to flog their products to whomever. As someone posted above, I also find it hard to really care anymore also. According to the Brexit docu, trade agreements are few and far between for most countries and mean very little for the ones that have them, still have to abide by individual countries rules.

You know what would be funny, say for arguments sake we do vote out (even though I don't have much faith that we will) but over the space of a decade or two our Government signs our rights away again that places us in this same mess to begin with. Little by little so the public don't spot it.
 
Associate
Joined
3 Sep 2009
Posts
183
Surely all the arguments against Brexit are based on the assumption that other countries wouldn't follow suit?
If our exit started a chain reaction, things would get very interesting.
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Nov 2013
Posts
4,294
Surely all the arguments against Brexit are based on the assumption that other countries wouldn't follow suit?
If our exit started a chain reaction, things would get very interesting.

It will indeed be interesting in the sense that the first to suffer from the consequences of the inevitable recession will be those who represent the bulk if Brexit supporters: the poor, the low skilled.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Feb 2006
Posts
9,637
10,000 European Union officials better paid than David Cameron

So what do we all think on this then? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html


More than 80 per cent of EU officials get a 16 per cent of salary top-up as a perk to compensate them for living in Brussels

This bit seemed the most justified. I've been to Belgium and couldn't wait to leave, so popped on a train and spent the rest of the time in Antwerp. :p
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
29 Mar 2011
Posts
4,908
It will indeed be interesting in the sense that the first to suffer from the consequences of the inevitable recession will be those who represent the bulk if Brexit supporters: the poor, the low skilled.

I take it you consider your self decisively rich and skilled. :rolleyes:
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Feb 2006
Posts
9,637
[TW]Fox;29510888 said:
Are you suggesting it's news that our Prime Minister is poorly paid for the job he does and responsibility he carries? I thought that was well known.

He's certainly not the best paid leader of a major economy (or I expect many, many much smaller economies.) However, that is a lot of people very well paid with special perks such as a very low tax rate and extra payments for every child they look after. This is certainly not a normal perk of a job.


Do you agree with it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom