The Liverpool Club Thread. **No Spoilers**
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Soldato
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To Trent's level or beyond? If it's the latter then I don't see it and it's not a slight on Foden. What Trent's already done as a RB is off the charts - he's changed how we see RB's. In years gone by a top class attacking fullback was somebody than got up the pitch a bit, smashed the odd 30 yarder in the top corner and picked up 4-5 assists. Trent's attacking output is so far ahead of anything we've seen before. He's not just getting 10+ assists and key pass numbers similar to creative midfielders but he's running games from RB.
If Foden can reach the level where he's one of the best players in the world in his position then he's done well, I can't see him reinventing that position and surpassing those that have gone before him though.
Trent at his peak is undoubtably world class but how much of this is due to the way Klopp had Liverpool playing. Having RB/LBs who don't have to worry too much about defending because you are pressing the opposition so effectively that they barely get a sniff of goal makes a huge difference. You are effectively playing wingers in defence without the usual issues that would come with that. Peak Liverpool were a well oiled machine and this year has shown to some extent that the machine needs to be complete or it all falls apart to some extent.
I don't think I agree that he has changed how we see RBs as a player, I think Klopp has done that with how Liverpool play as a team. You can see it in Citys play quite a lot as well. Wing backs that have a lot of freedom to get forwards because you aren't worried about an opponent attacking you when they can't get out of their own half.
How many top class sides across Europe in the past 10 years haven't had attack minded fullbacks? Look at the Barca, Real, Bayern, City sides of recent years, they've all had fullbacks that have been in the side for their attacking abilities more than their defensive abilities. Nobody is convincing me that Dani Alves, Marcelo, Walker etc are any better defenders than Trent, they're just not as effective as he's been going forward as he has been, nor had the same influence on the game across the 90 minutes as he does.
And it's far more than our system regarding Trent too. Robertson plays in the same system and yes, he gets a hell of a lot of assists too but he doesn't have the influence on the game across 90 minutes like Trent has. I was discussing playmakers in the transfer thread the other day and how they can play in different parts of the pitch and still do the same things. I don't think we've seen a fullback as a playmaker before and that's exacty what Trent is and was for us. The arrival of Thiago has given us somebody else that can get on the ball and make things happen but from 18/19 to 19/20, Trent was our primary playmaker. He wasn't just bombing forward, whipping crosses into the box, he was playing as a quarter back, hitting switches of play and throughballs to our forwards.
I wouldn't have said there was that much difference between Robertson and TAA honestly but I don't watch Liverpool outside of the big games. Marcelo has also been an absolute monster for RM for a long time now. Probably almost a blueprint for the modern attacking FB. Just doesn't play in quite the same manner as TAA, more direct and gets into and around the box more.
I'm not saying he isn't really good at what he does but I don't think he has redefined the role. I think other players have been doing it for years but maybe just not as effectively or with as much freedom to attack.
I'm glad you made the Marcelo point. The monster Marcelo, who is far more direct and gets in and around the box more than Trent didn't create anything like the number of chances or goals as Trent has. Not only will Trent more than double the number of assists Marcelo's picked up in his career (at 22 he already has half the number as Marcelo at 33), Trent also gets on the ball in deeper positions and has a far bigger input on the overall game. Trent is far more effective as an attacking fullback than any of the greats we've seen before and he offers much more than they do to.
And who are you comparing with when you say he has more attacking freedom? He has no more attacking freedom than Dani Alves, Alba, Marcelo, Kyle Walker etc
Whilst Alexander-Arnold is a very effective player, the above debate isn't very level-headed. There have been players before TAA with similar assist rates, there are certainly others who have been more of a direct goal threat and influence around the box. TAA's assist rate in the Premier League is 0.25 per game according to PremierLeague.com. Dani Alves' (as an example) across his entire 13-year La Liga career was 0.245, corroborated at 0.244 via another source, including a run of five of six seasons where he had 10 or more (9 in the other). That run also included finishing as La Liga's top assister, a second and two thirds. TAA's weapon is his delivery and set pieces contribute highly to his assist numbers - e.g. nearly 50% of his league assists across 2019-20 were from set piece situations.
I've avoided chance creation as another metric as it is skewed so heavily in Alves' favour that it could be a distinction between chances created / big chances created.
Laud him for his impact, sure. He brings a lot of dynamism. But 'redefined the position' and the other above comments at this stage of his career, pure hyperbole.
I've avoided chance creation as another metric as it is skewed so heavily in Alves' favour that it could be a distinction between chances created / big chances created.
Laud him for his impact, sure. He brings a lot of dynamism. But 'redefined the position' and the other above comments at this stage of his career, pure hyperbole.
So in Dani Alves peak years, most of which came in a Barca side that had 70% possession and were winning by cricket scores each week, he assisted at a lower rate than Trent? For balance, at a similar stage in Alves career to what Trent is at now (I've not gone in to too much detail, just his first 5 seasons), he'd picked up 11 assists in all comps. Trent has 40 odd.
The fact that Trent's assisting at a rate better than any of the previous great attcking fullbacks despite not reaching is peak, isn't what prompted me to say he's redefined the position - as fez said, we've always had attacking fullbacks, just not as effective as Trent. What Trent has changed is that he's not just another Alves, Marcelo, Evra, Cole or Andy Robertson or whoever else that bombs down the flank, overlapping the wide player. Of course, he does that too but that's not the limit to his attacking contribution. He gets on the ball in far deeper positions and influences the game for 90 minutes, not just 5 minutes when he's making overlapping runs. Look at his performance vs Utd at Old Trafford for example, how many of the chances he created or attacks he started came from passes closer to the halfway line than goalline. And that's one example of many. In Liverpool's two best seasons in my life time, he was the main playmaker doing the things Gerrard would have done in years gone by or what KdB does at City.
The only other time (at a high level anyway) I can remember fullbacks having the same level of influence on games that I can remember was during Pep's time at Bayern - like Trent, Lahm (when he wasn't playing CM) and Alaba where playing as midfielders in possession, controlling the game but they didn't have anything like the attacking output Trent has.
Oh, you were being serious with the 'redefining a position' thing.
People worried about the thread going off topic and proceed to take the thread off topic.
Yep. Were you being serious when you said you were a footballer and doing your coaching courses?
I was and i am.
How you can say a 22 year old has redefined a position is beyond me. Perhaps wait til the end of his career before making bold statements like that.
How are the trials for the new offside law coming along? It's beyond me that IFAB aren't doing these themselves and entrusted people doing (possible imaginary) coaching courses.
What does his age have to do with anything and why would I need to wait until his career is over. He's taken what fullbacks do to a new level.
When did i say our trials for an offside rule were from IFAB? I think you've imagined that part. We did them at Middlesbrough academy.
Of course age has a bearing, how does a 22 year redefine a position when legends like Lahm or Zanetti would be picked before him? Trent has redefined a position so well that he wouldn't get in the Liverpool side if both Lahm and Zanetti were at Liverpool, kinda nutty, do you not think?
You didn't say they were from IFAB but as the rulemakers it's they that decide on any changes to the rules of the game. If you're saying you done them off the cuff on your coaching course it's even less believable. You'd have thought coaching courses would have concentrated on coaching, not trialling changes to rules.
I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. Whether x or y are better fullbacks than Trent, how does that change the fact that Trent is playing the role in a way we've not seen before? Football evolves and we see different systems and ways certain positions are played. It doesn't mean they're better or worse. It's like different fashions in different eras. 30 years ago a fullback was an out and out defender, we've seen that change over time with Trent the latest player to take it to another level. That's not to say that in 20 years time it won't have reverted back to a more conservative style.
No, it wasn't on a coaching course.
Playing a role we've not seen before? Klopp's fullback are outlets to the way Liverpool play, he likes exploiting the wing area. You're basically saying, because a fullback gets the ball a lot, and kinda looks like a playmaker, then that's redefining the position. There have been endless lists of teams that use the fullbacks as outlets, Rinus Michels teams did that 30/40 years ago.
Ok, I'm fairly sure you said it was. And who said anything about outlets? I've said that we've seen that loads over the years. Trent's an attacking outlet plus is/was the main creative influence on our side.
Anyway, some natural straying off topic is ok but we are now going way off topic and I don't want to upset rob so I shall leave it there.
The point is, the difference is infinitesimal - and I would suspect not in TAA's favour if talking about assists from open play. We're not seeing production on a level unseen previously. For what it's worth, if we want balance on this, TAA's career at Liverpool has been in sides that have scored 78, 84, 89, 85 and 68 league goals. Two seasons of which were in teams that finished on 99pts and 97pts. Whilst he has contributed significantly to those totals, the difference to the corresponding Sevilla sides that Alves was part of in that approx. timeframe is stark (38 > 56 goals max, finished no higher than 5th, far more structured). TAA is given every opportunity to flourish in an aggressive and attacking Liverpool system, and has been a part of very good teams at that. You take the whole into account, not just the part that fits the narrative.
Again, TAA is a very effective player and brings a lot to the overall build-up and creative output to your team. There's no dispute of his abilities here. But there's a tendency to inflate on this forum, and 'redefining the position' is one of those times. It puts him on a pedestal and oversimplifies the impact, style and contributions of others. What Herrera did longterm with Facchetti, perhaps (as an e.g.). What TAA is able to do in an uber-aggressive but common system where he plays high and has a lot of capacity to influence a game, that's not my idea of it.
As above though, the tangent is now strong, so no more from me on Southgate's former 3rd choice rightback
So considerably less than Barca. Alves took set-plays too btw, just not as good as Trent's obviously. And Trent got 4x the assists in a side scoring approx 2x as many goals so still far better
Well we are though. 18/19 season he literally broke a record for most assists for a defender. He then decided he would break his own record a season later...
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So considerably less than Barca. Alves took set-plays too btw, just not as good as Trent's obviously. And Trent got 4x the assists in a side scoring approx 2x as many goals so still far better
How many assists did he get last season? You cannot really judge Trent compared to his peers till his careers finished.
Teams adapt and learn how to counter Trent. He will need to adapt his game over time.
What I am trying to say is as teams start to figure out Klopp Trent's output will reduce. This is just normal. Trent's success is not just his talent but also how Klopp plays.
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