The Official 'The Dark Knight Rises' Spoiler Discussion Thread...

Soldato
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Saw this tonight and thought it was the weakest of the three. 7/10.

Just seriously 'meh' (as they say) - that was really the first thought I had coming out talking to mates. I couldn't think of anything to talk about after, which is unusual. I didn't get bored as such, just no part of the film at all was truely great. There was now WOW in the film at all - it didn't have any of those spine tingling moments I've seen in other, better, movies - nothing like that. Seen it all before. Too main main characters gave little breathing room to any of them. Even in 2hrs 45mins.

Batman Beings 9/10
The Dark Knight 9.5/10
The Dark Knight Rises 7/10
 
Soldato
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The thing with Blake is

1) His powers of deduction are shown to be 1337 several times throughout the film, and he also has the same morals as Wayne regarding killing (hence the throwing of the gun)

2) As Al Ghul says in Batman Begins "the training is nothing... the will is everything!" - Blake has the will to act and Bruce sees this on his return to Gotham

3) The idea is that Gotham itself, post-Bane, doesn't require Batman - the Dent lie is in the open, justice is restored - in the same way at the end of TDK Gotham didn't need Batman... but

a) this peace was based on a lie, at it's core, much like the city's itself appeared peaceful while the foundations became home to the LoS

b) Wayne made it clear in BB and TDK his time as Batman would only be for as long as it took to pay the debt to his parents by completing his father's legacy and cleaning up Gotham, and he would them settle with his childhood sweetheart Rachel (who fell out of love with him once he became Batman and wore a Bruce Wayne mask). Her being killed off and Dent's paragon status in the public eye meant as the real Bruce Wayne, he felt he had nothing in life worth living for to make him walk away from a Batman Gotham had no need for... but with no fear of death he was more than happy to dust down the suit - which Alfred recognised immediately - because his life was joyless.*

Therefore at the end of TDKR his job is done, and he has a complimentary pairing in terms of a romantic interest - he can live his life without the mask of Bruce Wayne, which he also kills off - but as he says in BB - "... as a man I'm flesh and blood - I can be ignored, I can be destroyed - but as a symbol, as a symbol I can be incorruptible... I can be everlasting." The idea is that if Gotham needs Batman again in the future, there'll always be someone waiting to take his place when Gordon lights up the signal and resume the Legend

4) We can assume Bruce repairs the signal and alters his will to include the bag (and takes the pearls) in the time after the explosion when everything is still a mess, as the montage scenes take place around 6 months after it, and it took a long time for the dust to settle and normality to return. Plenty of time to plan things for a successor if he hadn't toyed with the idea already.

We can speculate Blake finds the Batcave much like Superman finds the Fortress of Solitude - a place where much will have been left to teach and guide him, building a relationship with Fox etc... if/when Batman is needed. We can speculate he may be still all 'Batman: Year One' when called, or that he is skilled. We can speculate that one day Blake will pass the torch as it was passed to him, but the thing with Nolan's story is that it was about Bruce's journey and Bruce's journey alone. There's no need to show any of this - only imply it - in the same way that Bruce is the only character whose backstory is explored extensively.

JGL might not look the part (has Bale looked like he could be Batman in some of his movies?!) but it's largely irrelevant since "a hero can be anyone" and we don't and shouldn't see it explored further, as Nolan's trilogy is all wrapped up in a nice bow tie at the end.


*Selina taking his mother's pearls for her own pleasure whilst taking the prints sets off the chain of events (he only notices prints have been taken because she robbed the safe) that ultimately conclude with her Han Solo moment near the end and being given the pearls willingly by Bruce - an implication Bruce has found in Selina what he believed he'd find with Rachel before she chose Dent and died.
 
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Soldato
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Saw this tonight and thought it was the weakest of the three. 7/10.

Just seriously 'meh' (as they say) - that was really the first thought I had coming out talking to mates. I couldn't think of anything to talk about after, which is unusual. I didn't get bored as such, just no part of the film at all was truely great. There was now WOW in the film at all - it didn't have any of those spine tingling moments I've seen in other, better, movies - nothing like that. Seen it all before. Too main main characters gave little breathing room to any of them. Even in 2hrs 45mins.

Batman Beings 9/10
The Dark Knight 9.5/10
The Dark Knight Rises 7/10

so you didn't think the first fight scene with bane was anything special? even though batman, who has easily beaten every other opponent inc raas al guul, not only gets beaten but doesn't get anywhere physically in the fight.

i was shocked at that.
 
Soldato
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i was shocked at that.
It not only shocked me, it made me feel vulnerable as an audience member. Batman has always been physically untouchable and a hero that you could always rely on physically outmatching his opponents. Seeing him get so badly beaten by Bane was stomach churning, even painful.

Not to mention the part of the fight where the lights go out... 'You merely adopted the dark... I was born in it.' I literally had a nightmare about it. :o
 
Soldato
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Simple: in the comics of DC, there are 52 different universes. A multiverse if you will. Not every single one of them has been explored. Therefore, Nolan's "Batman" could easily fit in one of these particular universes. And maybe on that particular Earth, Batman is the sole hero. Hence Nolan not having any other DC hero included in his version of Batman.

Where did you get 52 from, there are most likely more universes than this.

There was the 52 series a few years back which was published every week for a year, 52 weeks.

There was the DC relaunch last year which had 52 new titles.

That is the only real relevance 52 has as far as I know. I'm not saying your wrong and i'm happy to be proved wrong myself if you can find a link :)
 
Soldato
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I must say I do like reading your views on this thread, very well thought out and very logical.
Adds to the depth of the movie when I will rewatch it.

The trilogies depth is why these three films made them more than comic book/superhero movies, helped by Bruce Wayne/Batman being a more interesting character than a lot of the goody-goody heroes and is 'just a man'. The fact he wears a mask is used to further Wayne's character arc rather than being the focus of the films themselves, as opposed to most superhero movies where it's about the exposition once they have the uniform/mask. There are quotes/themes/symbolism that run through all three films and so we've got an actual trilogy, rather than recurring films that use the same characters.

The recent Marvel films, for example, are entertainment to me but largely forgettable because they're throwaway movies - I don't get anything out of it other than simple entertainment - not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's no empathy with the characters. You can't really discuss Iron Man in depth, because there isn't much depth to discuss.
 
Soldato
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Where did you get 52 from, there are most likely more universes than this.

There was the 52 series a few years back which was published every week for a year, 52 weeks.

There was the DC relaunch last year which had 52 new titles.

That is the only real relevance 52 has as far as I know. I'm not saying your wrong and i'm happy to be proved wrong myself if you can find a link :)

Dang it! >.< I always get myself mixed up in these things lol. I guess I say 52 universes because we've only got a handful of them. Plus the title 52 itself throws me off at times. Even tho I have read Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis. Somehow I still get muddled up. And I still have yet to read Zero Hour.

Man so many comics, so little time :p

But another source I think Nolan may have loosely borrowed from is Flashpoint. Where Thomas Wayne was Batman in an alternate timeline that was screwed up by Professor Zoom (The Reverse Flash). And in that story Bruce Wayne and Martha Wayne were the ones who died. So again, there's another reference to "Batman can be anyone".
 
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It not only shocked me, it made me feel vulnerable as an audience member. Batman has always been physically untouchable and a hero that you could always rely on physically outmatching his opponents. Seeing him get so badly beaten by Bane was stomach churning, even painful.

Not to mention the part of the fight where the lights go out... 'You merely adopted the dark... I was born in it.' I literally had a nightmare about it. :o

Don't forget he hadn't trained for 8 years so he wouldn't have been in the same physical condition he was in the previous films.

He then starts training hard when he is in that prison which is why the fight is much more equal when they fight near the end.
 
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It not only shocked me, it made me feel vulnerable as an audience member. Batman has always been physically untouchable and a hero that you could always rely on physically outmatching his opponents. Seeing him get so badly beaten by Bane was stomach churning, even painful.

Not to mention the part of the fight where the lights go out... 'You merely adopted the dark... I was born in it.' I literally had a nightmare about it. :o

Indeed, I agree 100% with you, that part was epic, gave me chills when he appeared in that scene.

I think another trip to the cinema is in order to watch this again.
 
Soldato
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dark knight rises - 8.8/10

as someone else said, good but the weakest of the 3. i also couldn't quite understand bane at times.

also, the stock exchange scene, they go in at daytime, the transfer takes about 10 mins and is occuring during the chase which is at night time!
 
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Soldato
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Sounds like some of you guys need to read the Knightfall series. That's the comic book where Bane breaks Batman's back. And during his recovery Bruce Wayne entrusts a chap by the name of Azrael to take up the mantle of Batman.

Honestly, if you ever get the chance, have a read of Knightfall. The old version was covered across 3 books. The new version is covered across 2 with some extras I believe. I still have the old versions and boy it is still as good now as it was in the 90s.
 
Soldato
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Reading Knightfall won't really help anyone understand the film any better - the film was only very losely based on the comic storyline.
We have Bane, we have a broken back and we have the release of all the prisoners (although in the comic that meant the introduction of the whole rogues gallery).
The trusting of the Batman mantle isn't covered at all in the film - however in the comic universe Batman doesn't take "8 months" off, there is always work to be done.

I own first prints of the whole Knightfall and the two aftermath sotry lines as well as a first print of "Vengence of Bane" and the "Sword of Azrael" comics - without a doubt my most valuable comics, mainly because nobody knew anything about Bane when that one-shot was released and many people didn't even bother with it :)
 
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IMAX'd it on Saturday - very impressed but rather melancholic that it has ended. Lots and lots of power/emotion in this film.

My only wish is that there were one or two more films before this one as they the films in the trilogy are of such quality that I just want to be greedy :p
 
Soldato
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Oh I totally agree with you. That's why I have said that Nolan has borrowed from a number of comic book sources to create his trilogy. I was merely letting people know of where Nolan took the idea from.

My most valuable comics are Death Of Superman, World Without A Superman and The Return Of Superman. Love them to bits :D
 
Soldato
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I loved the ending and cant see what the confusion is. The expression on Alfreds face should tell you that he was alive, well and living his life at last. They didnt even need the shot of Bruce/Selina but was a nice touch and sealed the chapter. Fantastic ending.

I have been listening to Fatman on Batman and Smodcast with Kevin Smith over the last couple of days. Some really great points, comments and comparisons. I especially enjoyed the comparison of the end of The Dark Knight Rises to the episode of Batman the TV Show when Batman runs down the jetty with the big bomb above his head :D:D:D
 
Soldato
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I really enjoyed this film - 2 hours and 44 minutes didn't feel like it dragged at all, whereas 2 hours and 16 mins of Spider last week did. A few plot holes niggled and the 5 minute day -> transition (what time does the stock market close in Gotham?) was amateurish, but overall it was excellent.

Tom Hardy played Bane fantastically and I agree with the comments about him being frightening and conveying a lot just with his eyes. My main gripe would be that the prison was emphatically described as a hell on earth in darkness - now I know that they'd have trouble filming a pitch black cavern but really it was just a big 40 metre deep well, thoroughly bathed in sunlight. It didn't seem much worse than your average movie prison, just a bunch of unpleasant men and a rock-climbing wall.
 
Soldato
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I loved the ending and cant see what the confusion is. The expression on Alfreds face should tell you that he was alive, well and living his life at last. They didnt even need the shot of Bruce/Selina but was a nice touch and sealed the chapter. Fantastic ending.

Showing Bruce and Selina was completely necessary:

*drum roll, another TL;DR post*

Being too vague would allow the audience to entertain the idea he's died for the very cause that challenged him in the beginning of the journey - precisely the opposite of Nolan's intentions, so he didn't.

Seeing him at the cafe is important:
1) The screenplay and novel are careful to describe the deep peace Alfred sees on his face, which we need to see on Bale's face (I'm not sure how successfully Bale pulled this off). We have to know Bruce is able to be himself and not be hiding behind disguises (including his 'Wayne' mask).

2) The visual symbols that he's moved on from Rachel's death - which Tate/Talia exploited successfully - and his parents death. If we can't see what Alfred sees, we wouldn't know that Selina's there. Her being there gives the audience the following information: Alfred wouldn't have imagined her as he wasn't around to see their relationship develop, unlike some random chick the audience has invested no emotion in (as we see when he's telling Bruce about it). Seeing her wearing the pearls demonstrates he no longer needs to hide memories of parents away + the significance of giving something that important to another person as a gift.

Plus we'd have needed a separate Selina scene. This would have made no sense since her character is written into the film specifically for the benefit of Bruce's character arc and in terms of Batman lore she is "the one" for Bruce - they've been married, had kids etc.

1) see here.
2) As well as being the catalyst for change that gets Bruce moving again (Bale described her as the person that brings Bruce back to life), she's used to embody the faith he has in people to choose to do good, and she proves his hope in people is justified. In terms of her arc, Wayne is the catalyst for her change - she'd always been looking to run away from her mistakes and it's serving Batman up to Bane only to find out he's Wayne (shattering her preconceptions about him) and then being caught by Blake and forced to live with the consequences (the siege) that we see her question her own judgement and look out for others not because she has to, but because she now chooses to (the apple, "this was someone's home" and it's edited out of the film but in the script of that same scene it's asked "isn't this what you wanted?" to which she replies "it's what I thought I wanted").
3) Bruce being the only character to see through both her acting and the barriers she puts up
4) Bruce needed a strong female character to evolve with after Rachel's death, to prove that he could move on from his time as Batman. Rachel rejected him because she couldn't deal with him being Batman, Selina embraced him because of it.
5) Her outright goal was exactly what Alfred wanted for him all along. The chemistry between Bale and Hathaway effectively showed how when they came together, they connected and let each other in.

So we need to see they get a happy ending together, and it works best when used as the reveal for Alfred because he's the one with the most emotional investment in Bruce.
 
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I thought it was good, not as good as TDK but up there. I thought it was a slow build up and then felt slightly rushed in places. Also the day/night cycles seemed random i.e. the stock market raid, it was day time, then suddenly night time after 5 mins, but it was not enough to spoil it.

Quick question, 1 of Banes lines "you merely adopted the dark, I was born in it" quality line delivered well, but after you find out the twist is this line now a lie?
 
Soldato
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Yep your right, was thinking about that last shot, we never would have seen him sitting looking happy with Selena, and her wearing the pearls.
 
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