This is why people are losing respect for the police...

[Pants]

The police have been next to useless for me. Phone stolen, and I know the building the chap is in? No response. Neighbour threatened to take a baseball bat to me? They went to his house and he was "apologetic" so no further action. Need help to locate and section a family member in crisis to get him the help he needs? He's not currently a danger to himself (in their narrow and brief view of the situation) so they can't help. Useless.

 

[Richie]

Not police as such but courts are being urged to look at lighter sentences for certain demographics:

The document suggests that judges need to take extra care in assessing the lives of offenders from specific backgrounds including
young adults, women, people with dependants, people who are transgender, ethnic minorities or people with addictions, learning disabilities or mental disorders.

The plans tell courts to think twice about jailing women because of the impact on children.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67561757

So just about everyone unless.... anyone??

 

[Haggisman]

So just about everyone unless.... anyone??

Yeah, that includes pretty much everyone except for straight single middle aged white men. Literally becoming a parody

 

[timbob]

Met Police officer cleared after Tasering girl, 10 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67576994

Not misconduct then, and a sensible decision. Not sure how else the various armchair experts imagine they’re going to go about disarming anyone with a pair of garden shears - prior to the advent taser use, this would have been an uncontrolled pile-on with batons out and the potential for broken bones and all sorts of other injury to all parties.

I particularly lol’ed at the suggestion that the officer should have stood by and watched the 10 year old murder their mother whilst politely asking them to stop, in preference to using taser… that *would* be gross misconduct!

 

[Mr Jack]

Not misconduct then, and a sensible decision.

Even if we consider the Met's Disciplinary Panel to be a reasonable arbiter, a finding of "not gross misconduct" is not equivalent to "a sensible decision". And that "if" is already doing a lot of heavy lifting.

I particularly lol’ed at the suggestion that the officer should have stood by and watched the 10 year old murder their mother whilst politely asking them to stop, in preference to using taser… that *would* be gross misconduct!

The information available does not support this claimed dichotomy:

Ms Checa-Dover said in body-worn camera footage Miss A "was presenting as calm", adding that Child A "is seen some way from the door, further along the hallway" and "appears to pick something up - now understood to be shears - from the floor".

"The officer instructed her to put them down, which she did not do. She walked away from those present, moving up the stairs of the home.

"The officer didn't speak to Miss A to clarify the present situation or whether there was anyone else in the house; rather, he advanced into the house announcing he was a police officer with a Taser and soon thereafter using his Taser twice on her whilst she was on the stairs."​

(my emphasis)

 

[Richie]

Yeah, that includes pretty much everyone except for straight single middle aged white men. Literally becoming a parody

I know... Made me chuckle a little but, in all honesty, its a little on the nose.

Although I wonder how many extra pregnancies will occur for women about to go to court...

 

[timbob]

Even if we consider the Met's Disciplinary Panel to be a reasonable arbiter, a finding of "not gross misconduct" is not equivalent to "a sensible decision". And that "if" is already doing a lot of heavy lifting.



The information available does not support this claimed dichotomy:

Ms Checa-Dover said in body-worn camera footage Miss A "was presenting as calm", adding that Child A "is seen some way from the door, further along the hallway" and "appears to pick something up - now understood to be shears - from the floor".​

​

"The officer instructed her to put them down, which she did not do. She walked away from those present, moving up the stairs of the home.​

​

"The officer didn't speak to Miss A to clarify the present situation or whether there was anyone else in the house; rather, he advanced into the house announcing he was a police officer with a Taser and soon thereafter using his Taser twice on her whilst she was on the stairs."​

(my emphasis)

What were the dynamics of the situation? Did the officer know there was nobody else in the house? Eight seconds is a very short period of time to gather any amount of information before having to make a decision - maybe the officer didn’t even see the mother or know where in the house she was? Maybe the officer’s first view upon opening the front door at the location was of the girl walking away from him and heading up the stairs - perhaps he thought girl was about to walk up there and stab her mother to death? Who knows…

Officers very often have to make very big decisions in a very limited time frame based on only the information they have available at the time. It’s very easy to criticise after the fact, especially from an external viewpoint because even if you try to put yourself in that officer’s shoes, you can’t “un-know” what you already know about how the situation turned out, which will skew your view to one extent or another of that officer’s decision making.

The biggest thing that struck me about this whole episode was that the girl was tasered on the stairs. That’s a fairly big no-no as head injuries from uncontrolled falls is the number one cause of things going badly with regards to suspect injuries at taser jobs. Perhaps that’s what the whole misconduct thing was about, rather than the fact that the girl was 10.

 

[Caracus2k]

Seems like a sensible outcome.

There is no 'safe distance' in a typical domestic environment when dealing with someone armed with a weapon.

The best you can do, for bladed weapons, is some degree of physical containment with doors, chairs tables etc.

And some people lack of knowledge of tactical options is telling when they suggest police should have used 'pepper spray' in an enclosed domestic environment.

Firstly UK police use either CS or PAVA spray (generally the latter one now) and there are sound reasons why police may be adverse to using either in such an indoor enviroment that many commenter appear to be oblivious about.

 

[StriderX]

They should release the bodycam footage if it's all above board then shouldn't they?

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

Not police as such but courts are being urged to look at lighter sentences for certain demographics:

Slippery slope there, but hardly surprising to see things like this.
"It's not their fault they are criminals, society made them do it!" Basically only one demographic that these measures wouldn't apply to.

 

[timbob]

They should release the bodycam footage if it's all above board then shouldn't they?

And so they have:

https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1730290741220364656

It appears to be a totally run of the mill Taser job in which the officer has acted in accordance with Taser training with proper intentions to make a dangerous situation safe. In fact, in years gone by this would be considered good policing (and it still is). Split second decision making, the officer ran towards danger, utilised the equipment at his disposal as per his training and there was a safe outcome for all involved.

Why the IOPC have been after this officer for gross misconduct - misconduct in a public office so serious as to warrant immediate dismissal and loss of his career, normally taken to be malicious, criminal activity (officers in bed with drug dealers and sharing police information for example) - and why it’s taken nearly three years to get this far boggles the mind…

 

[timbob]

Both pepper spray and a taser are pain weapons, if you can handle pain you can overcome them.

Broken bones and or, blunt force trauma cannot be overcome.

That being said if you are referring to a 10 year old, then obviously you would simply grab them with hands, you would not use a taser or a baton.

If its an adult man, you would baton them to the head.

At the risk of backtracking the thread from the welcome development today…

This is almost entirely incorrect.

“Pepper spray” is a pain weapon, if you wish to put it that way. It hurts, it’s in your eyes. You can’t see. Some people are almost immune to it, some not. You can indeed fight through it.

Taser is not a pain weapon. I have it on good authority that the 50,000 volts really hurts, but in an effective two probe deployment, the muscular incapacitation is not “fight-through-able”. You’re going down, in a plank position to the floor. You cannot overcome this - your muscles are literally incapacitated.

Broken bones and blunt force trauma absolutely, very much can be overcome. For example - a cocktail of drink/drugs etc can lead to a state which used to be known as Excited Delerium. Now commonly known as Acute Behavioural Disorder. It’s quite something and classed as an acute medical emergency. You develop superhuman strength, become impervious to pain, your body temperature skyrockets, your heart rate goes through the roof. I’ve encountered it two or three times. Once fought a man who’d fallen off the roof of a house onto the pavement breaking (amongst other things) his pelvis, femur, shoulder blade, arm and a number of ribs. He got up and ran away. Took half a dozen cops to wrestle him to the ground before getting him to hospital.

Back to your post - you’re just going to “simply” walk and grab the ten year old are you? The same one carrying a large edged weapon who you’re aware is high, has already assaulted their parent with a hammer and is not complying with your instructions? A taser is a distance control tool - literally made for this exact scenario. Why take the risk of entering into an uncontrolled wrestling match with someone carrying such an item?! Either the officer or the child is highly likely to suffer some sort of potentially serious injury.

And lastly, it’s pretty much the golden rule in officer safety training. You don’t baton anyone to the head. Like, literally ever. Unless you’re being pinned to the ground and are literally fighting for your life with a suspect who’s about to stab and kill you, there’s pretty much no circumstance where batoning a suspect to the head will fly. The risk of death is far too high. It’s a *much* higher level of force than a taser.

 

[jpaul]

yes sensible outcome - not really in doubt from the video , surprisingly un-traumatized/decapacitated by the tazer
"ow ow" , & was still necessary for officer to say, now put your arms in front of you.

then obviously you would simply grab them with hands, you would not use a taser or a baton.

grabbing 10yr old girl - yes that's a great suggestion

 

[timbob]

yes sensible outcome - not really in doubt from the video , surprisingly un-traumatized/decapacitated by the tazer
"ow ow" , & was still necessary for officer to say, now put your arms in front of you.


grabbing 10yr old girl - yes that's a great suggestion

That reaction and these circumstances are entirely normal and not in the least surprising.

Yes it hurts and incapacitates you. For a handful of seconds. Once the weapon has cycled (you hear the beeps on the video indicating the end of the power cycle) that’s it. Unless you press the button to extend the cycle - then it keeps the power running…. E.g. you can strip a weapon from the suspect and cuff them whilst the power is still running for many seconds. But this is obviously a higher level of force and must be justified. Interestingly, the officer in this situation didn’t do that…

The complete cluster**** of an incident the other year where two cops got stabbed and a member of the public smashed the suspect at Leicester Square with a boris bike was entirely down to a failure to do this - the suspect kept on getting up and coming at the officers again and again. And the incident where the man with a knife suffering a mental health crisis managed to jump off the bridge into the Thames after being tasered. Both incidents where officers have shied away from using the correct (higher) level of force that could have brought each incident to a safe conclusion.

Barring any injuries from an uncontrolled fall or incredibly rare heart failure brought on by taser (which I don’t think has ever happened in the UK, but I stand to be corrected if I’m wrong), the worst thing you’re left with after being tasered is two small bee sting type puncture marks from the fishing hook type barbs hanging out your skin. I notice the article even criticised the nasty officer for leaving the barbs in even though it is in line with guidance to do so (leaving the job to paramedics to ensure no extra inadvertent injury is caused by a non-medically trained person trying to remove the barbs).

But yeah - no, let’s just stand by and watch/film her stab her mother to death because “oh no, scary bad taser”… or let’s baton a 10 year old, breaking her bones instead whilst trying to disarm her Hollywood cop style and not get stabbed in the process.

 

[arknor]

So just about everyone unless.... anyone??

I never get the women thing because of children.... They need a father too

the people committing the crimes should have thought about the consequences of being caught..

but why does it list ethnic minorities?

 

[Caracus2k]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1730290741220364656

What a total nothing burger....

The officer acted decisively based on what would have been little information to bring that incident to a swift and, in the circumstances, relatively safe conclusion having given the child a clear command to drop the shears they were holding.

 

[Caracus2k]

I never get the women thing because of children.... They need a father too

the people committing the crimes should have thought about the consequences of being caught..

but why does it list ethnic minorities?

I thought this might just be a bit of sensational reporting but nope it's right there in the draft document....

DRAFT Imposition of community and custodial sentences – revised – for consultation only – Sentencing

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk

A pre-sentence report may be particularly important if the offender is:

• at risk of a custodial sentence of 2 years or less
• a young adult (18-25 years)
• female (see further information below at section 3)
• pregnant (see further information below at section 3)
• Sole or primary carer for dependent relatives
• from an ethnic minority, cultural minority, and/or faith minority community

Absolutely outrageous and without any rational /fair justification to suggest people from 'miniority cultural and or faith communities' should have a automatic higher presumption of the benefit of a PSR.

But it gets worse....

When sentencing female offenders, courts should be aware that female offenders offend for different reasons than men and the impact of custodial sentences on female offenders is different.

What absoulte nonsence it is to make sweeping statements like this! Yes the 'average' woman may offend for different reasons vs the 'average' man but that doesn't mean than women don't commit crimes out of plain greed of malice or that men don't commit crime because they are placed in desperate situation themselves.

It is important for the court to ensure that it has sufficient information about a female offender’s background. As such, when considering a community or custodial sentence for a female offender, the court should ask Probation for a pre-sentence report. Courts should be aware of the following considerations when sentencing a female offender:

• Female offending is commonly linked to mental health, substance-misuse, or financial and homelessness issues

And it isn't for men? The biggest difference is often that the women have had a higher rate of diagnosis and support *before* they offended where as the male prisons have a lot of people with a lot of these issues that haven't been properly diagnosed or treated.

• Female offenders sentenced to custody are much more likely than male prisoners to suffer from anxiety or depression or attempt suicide. Women (typically aged 45 to 55) may suffer from the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, which can affect their mood, mental health and behaviour.

Yeah let's not mention that women may 'attempt' suicide more often but not that they aren't anywhere near as good as men at actually commiting suicide!

Let's look what the facts say shall we....

Women in prison commit suicide at lower 'per capita' rates vs men... same as they do out of prison!

Gender:​

The overwhelming majority of deaths in custody in 2022 (97%) occurred in the male estate, a finding that has been consistent over time.

There were 8 deaths in the female estate, up from 6 in 2021, accounting for around 3% of the total deaths. As a result, cross-tabulations of characteristics with gender (e.g. ethnicity by gender) are not presented below because the numbers of deaths in the female estate are too small for meaningful analysis.

There were 74 self-inflicted deaths in 2022, 69 of which occurred in the male estate (down from 87 in 2021) and 5 in the female estate (up from 1 in 2021).

The 2022 estimate uses the 2021 Census for the general population figure. In 2023, 4% of the prison population was female,

White prisoners were actually more likely as a % to kill themselves than any other group.... I would imagine at least in part because the 'average' age of a white prisoners is older than the rest and older ages are a risk factor.

Ethnicity:​

The rate of self-inflicted deaths in 2022 was higher amongst White prisoners than prisoners of all other ethnic groups combined

The rate of self-inflicted deaths decreased from 1.3 in 2021 to 1.1 in 2022 for White prisoners, and from 0.6 in 2021 to 0.5 in 2022 for prisoners of all other ethnic groups combined.

Safety in Custody Statistics, England and Wales: Deaths in Prison Custody to December 2022 Assaults and Self-harm to September 2022

www.gov.uk

And again women are often just *diagnosed* with mental health conditions at a higher rate. The actual underlying levels don't match up very well.

I also reject the hormonal argument. Men may lack a hormone 'cycle' like women but we are also under the affect of hormones and there have been studies that show that 'transmen' (trans identified females) have been shown to be more aggressive that they were before when taking testosterone.

Either both men and women are responsible for their acts equally or we should both be able to point to out biological makeup.

• Women from an ethnic minority background in particular have distinct needs from both men from an ethnic minority background, and white women, and these should be considered before the imposition of a community or custodial sentence.

More special pleading nonsense.

 

[the shadow]

Police officer who claimed ex assaulted her sacked as he doesn't exist

PC Nadia Thurley, 29, made 14 allegations against 'fictional' ex Dan Jones which led to police wasting 'extensive' resources investigating the supposed crimes.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Energize]

Almost certainly not within the power of the parent. The footage will be owned by the met police. It's them that would decide to release it or not (likely with suitable approvals which may or may not include the parent)

Indeed, complete lack of accountability, such footage should always be released to the suspect upon request. Otherwise body worn cameras serve no purpose other than to protect the police's interests.

 

[TheVoice]

Indeed, complete lack of accountability, such footage should always be released to the suspect upon request. Otherwise body worn cameras serve no purpose other than to protect the police's interests.

The BWV footage is three posts above yours.