Tower block fire - london

Orionaut · 27 Jul 2017 at 22:59

StriderX said:
Hopefully someone high up does some serious time, it'd be a lesson to any council that try this again.

How will local authorities work if nobody is willing to put themselves forward for the role any more?

AIUI, "Child Services" across the country were devastated in the aftermath of the "Baby P" affair, simply because nobody wanted to do the job any more....

Be careful of what you wish for..!

:/

Fishbait · 27 Jul 2017 at 23:10

Hopefully, anyone that does take roles somewhere down the road, will be aware of what happened (if anything actually does...) & will actually take care of things properly & not cut corners to save pennies whilst putting lives at risk.

Reminds me, had a letter from council few weeks ago. Something along the lines of "Since the Grenfall incident, we're aware people may be worried, but to assure you that the block of flats you're in does not have the kind of cladding that that tower had" or words to that effect.

Well, I know that. It's only three story & clearly brick from the outside, but I guess sending letters to everyone may prevent some panic. Will see if still got it somewhere.

Caracus2k · 28 Jul 2017 at 08:10

Fishbait said:
Hopefully, anyone that does take roles somewhere down the road, will be aware of what happened (if anything actually does...) & will actually take care of things properly & not cut corners to save pennies whilst putting lives at risk.

I think your comment is part of the problem. Money isn't spent in a vacuum. Money spent on one thing is money not spent on another. Like most things being in charge of something and taking decisions is a series of trade offs. No such thing as 'safe' just varying degrees or relative safety. Problem is we live in a system where when things (inevitably) go wrong someone has to be found to blame where when if there are faults their often more systemic in nature. Personally I would expect the outcome of this sad tale to be a change in building codes and an investigation as to whether current codes were complied with or not. If they were then it should be a case of 'lessons learned and move on'. Unfortunately one of the more pernicious effects of the Internet and social media in general is to act as a great recruiting sergeant for virtual pitch fork wielding baying lynch mobs

ubersonic · 28 Jul 2017 at 08:28

stewski said:
Not really.
People of your skin tone *or insert other irrelevant characteristic here* have done bad things, are you bad too?

Yes really, I think You misread.

Tefal was trying to get one over on Rob by pointing out that Rob's actions weren't indicative of all white people so why should an immigrant's actions be indicative of all immigrants (valid point) but then Rob pointed out he wasn't white (and thus that Tefal had made a racist assumption while trying to claim Rob was making a racist assumption), it was a pretty epic burn.

Freakbro · 28 Jul 2017 at 08:45

ubersonic said:
Yes really, I think You misread.

Tefal was trying to get one over on Rob by pointing out that Rob's actions weren't indicative of all white people so why should an immigrant's actions be indicative of all immigrants (valid point) but then Rob pointed out he wasn't white (and thus that Tefal had made a racist assumption while trying to claim Rob was making a racist assumption), it was a pretty epic burn.

I pointed out to Tefal that Rob wasn't white as soon as he said it, and it doesn't change the point that much, Rob is always going on about the 'hordes of immigrants' and the 'rape epidemic' whilst being one of those non-white immigrants, so he falls into that category surely?

What gets me with people like Rob is he is a non-white immigrant (South American iirc), married to another immigrant (Chinese) over here being a vocal, drawbridge pulling up, Brexit supporter.....aka hypocrite.....whilst myself, being a white british native am happy he was able to have that opportunity to thrive, prosper and find his partner over here and am happy others have the same opportunity.

Caracus2k · 28 Jul 2017 at 09:03

Freakbro said:
I pointed out to Tefal that Rob wasn't white as soon as he said it, and it doesn't change the point that much, Rob is always going on about the 'hordes of immigrants' and the 'rape epidemic' whilst being one of those non-white immigrants, so he falls into that category surely?

What gets me with people like Rob is he is a non-white immigrant (South American iirc), married to another immigrant (Chinese) over here being a vocal, drawbridge pulling up, Brexit supporter.....aka hypocrite.....whilst myself, being a white british native am happy he was able to have that opportunity to thrive, prosper and find his partner over here and am happy others have the same opportunity.

Perhaps he and his partner immigrated into the country legally via a process rather than illegally or through the free for all that is movenent within the EU? No hypocrisy necessarily involved? A lot of people just want an immigration system which limits numbers and filters applicants.

Dis86 · 28 Jul 2017 at 09:26

Caracus2k said:
Perhaps he and his partner immigrated into the country legally via a process rather than illegally or through the free for all that is movenent within the EU? No hypocrisy necessarily involved? A lot of people just want an immigration system which limits numbers and filters applicants.

True enough. People that either need to be here because they truly aren't safe in one of our neighbouring countries or who through knowledge or skills will be of benefit to society. We've already got enough of our own dregs without importing more.

Freakbro · 28 Jul 2017 at 09:42

Caracus2k said:
Perhaps he and his partner immigrated into the country legally via a process rather than illegally or through the free for all that is movenent within the EU? No hypocrisy necessarily involved? A lot of people just want an immigration system which limits numbers and filters applicants.

Well illegal immigrants are irrelevant to the conversation, we already have all the controls we would need for Non-EU immigration, and it's still in the hundreds of thousands not the 'tens of thousands' overall limit the Tories talk about and as for EU FOM - that's a contentious point sure, but again we actually have the controls to limit non-productive people (or dregs as Dis86 likes to call them), we just don't use it.

Also there are a lot of people that do want no immigration at all and would accuse Rob of stealing a British persons job irrespective he came here legally

Caracus2k · 28 Jul 2017 at 10:26

Freakbro said:
Well illegal immigrants are irrelevant to the conversation, we already have all the controls we would need for Non-EU immigration, and it's still in the hundreds of thousands not the 'tens of thousands' overall limit the Tories talk about and as for EU FOM - that's a contentious point sure, but again we actually have the controls to limit non-productive people (or dregs as Dis86 likes to call them), we just don't use it.

Also there are a lot of people that do want no immigration at all and would accuse Rob of stealing a British persons job irrespective he came here legally

Well it's clearly not irrelevant to the conversation that the existing provisions are so poor at dealing with the issues of immigration. European freedom of movement is going to very soon become a very big issue with countries like the Italy threating to give visas to hundreds of thousands of largely economic migrants currently residing in their country from the MENA area a large amount of whom, given the chance, would rather move on to other EU countries with the UK being a very popular 'secondary migration' country for people to move to once given status in another EU country having migrated in from outside of the EU

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/15/italy-threatens-to-give-schengen-visas-to-migrants-as-eu-dispute-deepens

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4699210/amp/Italy-EU-visas-200-000-migrants-send-north.html

All of this is however rather of topic for a thread about a building fire but after 150+pages. On GD is to be expected I guess!

StriderX · 28 Jul 2017 at 10:59

Caracus2k said:
I think your comment is part of the problem. Money isn't spent in a vacuum. Money spent on one thing is money not spent on another. Like most things being in charge of something and taking decisions is a series of trade offs. No such thing as 'safe' just varying degrees or relative safety. Problem is we live in a system where when things (inevitably) go wrong someone has to be found to blame where when if there are faults their often more systemic in nature. Personally I would expect the outcome of this sad tale to be a change in building codes and an investigation as to whether current codes were complied with or not. If they were then it should be a case of 'lessons learned and move on'. Unfortunately one of the more pernicious effects of the Internet and social media in general is to act as a great recruiting sergeant for virtual pitch fork wielding baying lynch mobs

A government is not a corporate entity and is not a household. It can quite rightly dip above 100% of it's revenue without much pain as long as the GILT market wants the debt and as long as the investment in the country is worth it.

Caracus2k · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:03

StriderX said:
A government is not a corporate entity and is not a household. It can quite rightly dip above 100% of it's revenue without much pain as long as the GILT market wants the debt and as long as the investment in the country is worth it.

There are consequences for a government that continues to overspend this is a fact. A country that is a sovereign currency issuer can of course exercise a large degree of flexibility. But it is immoral never mind unsustainable to continue to borrow or debase the countries currency.

For more local entities, like London councils, money is very much a finite resource which needs to be spent in a considered manner.

StriderX · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:10

Doesn't seem to be any consequence for the US overspend...

ubersonic · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:34

Freakbro said:
What gets me with people like Rob is he is a non-white immigrant (South American iirc), married to another immigrant (Chinese) over here being a vocal, drawbridge pulling up, Brexit supporter.....aka hypocrite.....whilst myself, being a white british native am happy he was able to have that opportunity to thrive, prosper and find his partner over here and am happy others have the same opportunity.

To add extra comedy too it all, there's no such thing as a white British native anyway, the "white British" are descended from Italian, German, Scandinavian and French immigrants. Actual native British ethnicity looks almost mediterranean, hence some English racists even giving the Welsh of native descent jip for looking foreign lmao.

StriderX · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:38

No such thing as anything then as we all hail from some African Mother of some sort, but that would not work for nationalists, i imagine anyone who has at least 5 or so generations are minimal British (bonus brownie points if they're white).

Uther · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:42

So, the police are looking at corporate manslaughter charges.Maybe now people will stop blaming the poor sods who lived in the block to this tragedy.

Terminal_Boy · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:44

Has the chap whose fridge caught fire been contacted yet? The forward thinking gent who already had his bags packed just in case such an appliance related catastrophe struck?

Hagar · 28 Jul 2017 at 11:47

Uther said:
So, the police are looking at corporate manslaughter charges.Maybe now people will stop blaming the poor sods who lived in the block to this tragedy.

This also implies that sufficient deviation from the rules and regulations occurred and therefore these were not necessarily wrong or inadequate for the situation. This remains to be stated though.

Werewolf · 28 Jul 2017 at 12:15

Terminal_Boy said:
Has the chap whose fridge caught fire been contacted yet? The forward thinking gent who already had his bags packed just in case such an appliance related catastrophe struck?

Has there been any proof of that or is it one of those silly rumours?

Or was it, that he had a bag ready for a trip and grabbed that on the way out? I know a few people who keep a travel bag packed as they work away from home a lot.

v0n · 28 Jul 2017 at 12:20

Freakbro said:
What gets me with people like Rob is he is a non-white immigrant (South American iirc), married to another immigrant (Chinese) over here being a vocal, drawbridge pulling up, Brexit supporter.....aka hypocrite.....whilst myself, being a white british native am happy he was able to have that opportunity to thrive, prosper and find his partner over here and am happy others have the same opportunity.

It almost always seems to be the case that the most vocal leaders of lynch mob hide pure blood complex behind their pitchforks. Nigel Farage wish the drawbridges were retrieved as soon as his French Huguenot family stepped aboard mother England, Nick Ferrari considers the moment his Swiss immigrant father crossed the channel like a perfect opportunity to cut off ties to mainland continent, and so on so forth.

stewski · 28 Jul 2017 at 21:19

ubersonic said:
Yes really, I think You misread.

Tefal was trying to get one over on Rob by pointing out that Rob's actions weren't indicative of all white people so why should an immigrant's actions be indicative of all immigrants (valid point) but then Rob pointed out he wasn't white (and thus that Tefal had made a racist assumption while trying to claim Rob was making a racist assumption), it was a pretty epic burn.

Firstly skin colour (or any obvious phenotype) is not a race!
Secondly as I said, insert people from your own grouping who have done bad things and answer, do their actions make you bad?

The point stands and the post it was in response to is ridiculous!