Ubisoft deactivating keys it says were "fraudulently" obtained and resold

[PaulC2K]

"Ubisoft do have the right to do this. They state who can sell their keys and revoke any which haven't been sold by these people. However, I think they've handled this badly. They should have told users why their game had been revoked and that they should contact the key reseller for a refund. Maybe even offered them a discount on the game which they had revoked so they could rebuy it at a similar cost through the official storefront. "

So you believe Ubisoft are able to identify who sold a key to a customer??

If i go to GMG, buy a key for £40 or w/e, and decide to sell it for £45 and someone buys it, Im an unauthorised seller. So you tell me how Ubisoft know I didnt activate that key, and the person who bought if from me, bought it from an unauthorised seller and not from GMG.


Its got absolutely nothing to do with who is authorised to sell the game, and who hasnt. The difference is that you KNOW that if you buy from an authorised seller, it'll be legit and direct through an authorised supply chain.

Where unauthorised resellers come in, is that you have no guarantee where that key came from. The vast majority of keys sold on sites like G2A and Kinguin will be 100% legit, wont be deleted, because they're legit keys. The problem is, if someone purchased a bunch of keys with stolen funds or w/e, then those keys are 'stolen', and by the time its been registered at Ubisoft, the theif/frauster has passed them on and eventually most will be in the hands of unknowing customers.

Blaming G2A and Kinguin is the same as blaming eBay because someone sold stolen goods on their. Its not the marketplaces fault, its the sellers who used the marketplace.

 

[ZombieFan]

Blaming G2A and Kinguin is the same as blaming eBay because someone sold stolen goods on their. Its not the marketplaces fault, its the sellers who used the marketplace.

Bad wording on my part. I should have stated that Ubisoft have the right to revoke any keys sold by unauthorised sellers which have been purchased illegally. It should be G2A's responsibility to make sure they are not selling stolen goods and they should be actively removing any stolen goods from their marketplace. Just like ebay. If they can't do this - well - that's a problem they've got to solve themselves.

It's simple really. If you don't want the risk, buy from an authorised seller. If you buy from an unauthorised seller then you accept the possibility that your key may be revoked in the future.

 

[Moothead2]

Blaming G2A and Kinguin is the same as blaming eBay because someone sold stolen goods on their. Its not the marketplaces fault, its the sellers who used the marketplace.

http://nypost.com/2014/07/17/louis-vuitton-ebay-settle-fight-over-fake-goods-on-auction-site/

 

[Flack88]

Good thing is there is nothing Ubisoft can do as most of these companies are apparently based out of Hong Kong.

 

[JoeFX]

Ubisoft Says Deactivated Far Cry Keys Purchased With Stolen Credit Card

 

[hyperseven]

Ubisoft Says Deactivated Far Cry Keys Purchased With Stolen Credit Card

They can say what they want, they still have provided no proof.

Whats all this 'may' usage in their statement? I call bull!

 

[PaulC2K]

Bad wording on my part. I should have stated that Ubisoft have the right to revoke any keys sold by unauthorised sellers which have been purchased illegally. It should be G2A's responsibility to make sure they are not selling stolen goods and they should be actively removing any stolen goods from their marketplace. Just like ebay. If they can't do this - well - that's a problem they've got to solve themselves.

It's simple really. If you don't want the risk, buy from an authorised seller. If you buy from an unauthorised seller then you accept the possibility that your key may be revoked in the future.

I havent been burnt from one of these unauthorised sellers, maybe my feelings would be different if they had (though given the way they've responded, with full refunds, i'd be satisfied with their part), but i know only a few days ago i was looking at prices for ESO, thinking there might be some copies going cheap (there was) and expecting the prices to go up due to the recent F2P announcement (they did).
24hr later, there were still 3 sellers, none of them had any seller rating, nor did they come with the option of buyer protection.

The conclusion is simple, it looks shady. They could be legit, i dont know, but its not worth it.
Looking now, theres 3 sellers, one with 100% on almost 400 sales and protection, 1 with nothing, and one with 99.93% on over 7000 sales and protection.
I'd have absolutely no issue buying from either of those 2, and i doubt i'd bother with the protection either, cos they have clean reputation and the site is willing to back them up (for a fee).

I CBA doing a thorough check, but just looking on GMG, they want £50 download or £35 dvd. Kinguin is under £20 (£17 plus any paypal fees).
Buy from an authorised seller is definitely the risk free answer, but if you use reasonable judgement, the 'unauthorised' sellers are fine.

If my code for The Crew (game+pass) came back as invalid and i got a refund, as a few ppl have suggested, i'd actually be perfectly satisfied with a full refund (esp as i bought 3 copies) as we're pretty much done with it we've had our fun, we'll go back to it, but to get £100 back... definitely, it would have satisfied my desire to play it, and also my joy of getting my money back instead of Ubisoft getting it

 

[PaulC2K]

Ubisoft Says Deactivated Far Cry Keys Purchased With Stolen Credit Card

We approached Kinguin, one of the retailers in question yesterday about the matter. At that time, the company told us something quite different.
"The banned game copies in question were acquired through licensed wholesale distributors and as such the origin of the ‘keys’ is the publisher himself,” said Kinguin chief marketing officer Bartłomiej Skarbiński.

I keep coming back to the same thing, how can Ubisoft identify how a code was purchased?!?

F9SLF-5LM0F-MNC92
Ubisoft records say they sold that key to Game Distributor Inc. Now what??

Everything after that, Ubisoft has no control, no absolute method to determine who the person is who's activated it, or the people who've owned those 15 characters before it was finally activated. They dont know its Kinguin/G2A, its simply impossible for them to know this as an indisputable fact.

The only way would be if GD Inc reported them stolen or fraudulently purchased, or somehow Ubisoft found out that GD Inc had sold them to someone Ubisoft disapprove of, and Ubisoft make up an excuse and block a batch of codes.


For Ubisoft to block a load of keys, based on ANY reason (valid or otherwise) because they've sold every single key to outlets. They control that 100%, and after that its completely out of their control. So to be able to ban keys sold at a specific store means they have additional information, which they can follow and it takes them to Kinguin/G2A etc. They cant track what Game Distributor Inc do with them to know they've sold them to Kinguin/G2A, not without someone telling them.

So something is going on, and its either legitimate theft/fraud, or its someone 'grassing' and informing Ubisoft that a batch of keys were sent to certain unapproved sellers, and Ubisoft have blocked them on that information.
Ubisoft cant possibly identify the final seller without assistance, to be able to block only unapproved resellers keys, while leaving approved resellers keys. Its not possible.

 

[arknor]

Check the edit above. Ubi are saying it is fraud and that the end-user will have to contact the vendor (i.e. the key site).

I'd be interested to know exactly what kind of fraud is happening here and whether it is against the law

what type of deception has happened here? who is the victim?


lol that louis vouton news article about ebay someone linked to.
as if the people buying the fakes are oblivious they are buying a fake.
these people couldn't afford an original even if they wanted one, the people who can afford them will buy from a reputable store.

where is the harm in selling a knock off version? the people buying it wouldn't buy the official one anyway.

the only people getting hurt are the poor people, but ofcourse it's not about the money in such cases it's about keeping a product "exclusive" to the wealthy who will pay ridiculous markups to get one over their "friends"

 

[Witcher1979]

I'd be interested to know exactly what kind of fraud is happening here and whether it is against the law

what type of deception has happened here? who is the victim?


lol that louis vouton news article about ebay someone linked to.
as if the people buying the fakes are oblivious they are buying a fake.
these people couldn't afford an original even if they wanted one, the people who can afford them will buy from a reputable store.

where is the harm in selling a knock off version? the people buying it wouldn't buy the official one anyway.

the only people getting hurt are the poor people, but ofcourse it's not about the money in such cases it's about keeping a product "exclusive" to the wealthy who will pay ridiculous markups to get one over their "friends"

ahahahahah, that was a super funny post. I have always known you were a bit of a moron.

 

[Boycey0211]

so technically if G2A/Kinguin bought these keys legally at stock price and sell them on at barely any profit, how does that make it different to me selling my game key on the MM like I did last month?

Yes, its not on an industrial scale but the principle is the same, the buyer paid far less than Ubi store price (£20 instead of £45) and he wasn't the first 'owner' of that code but the first to activate it, so legally where does he stand?????

I know they wont take it off him but if its all legally bought in the first place why is there a problem?

 

[PaulC2K]

I'd be interested to know exactly what kind of fraud is happening here and whether it is against the law

what type of deception has happened here? who is the victim?

Yeah, Ubisoft appear to be accusing these sites of illegal activities, claiming they're stolen. Notice its nothing to do with them being unapproved resellers as the reason, most likely because they dont have the ability to dictate who can and cant sell something they've purchased legally (if thats the case).

So key sellers bought with stolen credit cards, and there should be legal action taken by the local authorities for fraud/theft.
or Ubisoft is lying, and its defamation/slander.

Its not the first time this has happened either, they pulled the same trick a couple of months back didnt they? also for Far Cry 4 i'd assume.


As for the Louis Vouton stuff...
If someone is selling a £2k chav bag for £1900, with a decent enough blag story (or add a bit of wear, and its '2nd hand' for £1500 - bargin) then people are likely to fall for it.
If you're selling a £2k bag for £200, or £20, then yeah you'd be a fool if you thought it was legit, and i doubt people do. Doesnt mean its acceptable to sell knock off gear, regardless of how the customer justifies it or believes its authenticity.

 

[arknor]

So key sellers bought with stolen credit cards, and there should be legal action taken by the local authorities for fraud/theft.

even if somehow they were bought with credit cards fraudulently somewhere along the line before they end up with g2a/kingpin who actually loses out?
I'd have thought it was the banks not ubisoft ? so deactivating the keys is only hurting the people who bought them in good faith in a completely legal way to find out ubisoft deactivates the keys

 

[PaulC2K]

Whoever sold the key/s, only to find out that the payment was fraudulent, is almost certainly the one who's lost out.
Where the dominos stop, i dont know. I suspect at the person who got scammed originally.

I've just been reading the thread over on NeoGAF and theres a chap in there called 'SirJackDaniels' whos claiming that he regularly supplies sites like G2A and Kinguin with their games, that he's moving millions of business with the likes of Ubisoft, and that the keys which Ubisoft are claiming are stolen, most certainly are not.

What i do find interesting, as i didnt know this, is that its illegal for these sites to sell stripped keys. Buying a retail copy, removing content from it, and then selling its content individually, goes against copyright laws.

SirJackDaniels has a contract with Ubisoft to buy and sell retail copies 'as is', but he's emphasising that that contract starts and stops with him, theres no obligation or contract drawn between the places he then ships games to (which he includes Amazon in).

There are basically 2 main issues here.

1.) Copyright infringement: According to law, key resellers are doing illegal business by stripping keys and selling them from retail boxes. Ubisoft has the fullest right to send a cease & desist letter to these companies, followed by Civil lawsuit if not complied to the C&D letter. Ubisoft is correct.

However:

2.) Consumer protection (within EU). Ubisoft has no right whatsoever to revoke the licenses activated by consumer sold by whatever company.
Ubisoft has to seek damages at the key retailers that are violating their copyright. As discussed above there is no way to differentiate between stripped key sales or retail boxed sales. In essence they are the same.

Im sure that several consumers that bought boxed games for example at Amazon but live in a different country have their key revoked. This is against EU Free Trade.

www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=979151&page=13
His comments (so far, are on pg13, 14 & 15).

So by splitting retail copies to sell as digital codes, these sites are breaking copyright law. Meanwhile, Ubisoft are also breaking the law by revoking the licenses, when their correct path of action is with the company selling them.

This still doesnt explain how Ubisoft knows which of the keys SJD had sold went to Amazon and were sold as boxed retail copies, and which went to G2A and Kinguin. The best they could do is IP locate them, so if its activated in Germany, and the key was for sale in the EU, then it'd be undetectable however its sold. If you bought a key from an Indian retail box, and activated it in Norway, then it'll be pulled (still couldnt prove that the Indian store didnt ship the boxed retail game!).

 

[spoffle]

Ubisoft Says Deactivated Far Cry Keys Purchased With Stolen Credit Card

Are you surprised? They have two options here.

1) Accept that they shouldn't have done what they did and reinstate the copies of games they have removed, as regardless of what's happened, it's their end customers losing out. The likelihood of them actually going out and buying a "legit" copy from "official" channels after this is next to none, so deactivating their games is simply a measure with punitive intent as they (Ubisoft) are in the same position either way.

2) Refuse to accept what they did, or how they dealt with it was wrong in any sort of way and push it as much as they can in the hope that they look like the good guys, in some warped way. The only realistic way they can do this is by claiming that the keys were originally purchased using stolen credit cards, in the hope that they look like victims too and justifies their action of revoking the keys.

If it was a matter of channel control and they didn't like that people were buying their games from "grey" channels, there is no chance in hell that they would ever admit this. They have demonstrated that they are dumb, but I just can't believe that they would be dumb enough to admit to that sort of thing, as it's effectively saying "we threw our toys out of the pram because our attempt at price fixing isn't working".

So in a realistic practical sense, they haven't really got much other choice to say anything buy "they were obtained illegally" whether they weren't or not if they are adamant that they aren't reinstating people's copies.

 

[spoffle]

Lets get something out the way early on... Ubisoft are destroying the industry, with shoddy games, shoddy business practices, and they're frequently complaining about things which they blame the gamer for, yet ignore that they're they a significant reason for the gamers actions.

Sure, no objection there.

That said, theres a lot of people frothing at the mouth and getting their knickers in a twist because its fun and easy to hate on Ubisoft.

They're not revoking keys because they've realised they've come from someone selling them at £20 and they want you to buy them at £50 direct or £40 from an approved selling. For starters, how the F are ubisoft supposed to know how much you paid for a game?? They cant look at a key and say oooh, that was Oleg in Minsk, how dare he sell a go to a store and buy game for £10 and then sell the key to someone for £20.

You assume so, but as I said in my last post they aren't going to admit to banning keys just because they were bought in Russia but activated in the UK.

However, they can tell when this sort of thing is happening. They should have a record of what keys go where, or even generate keys with specific strings that identify them as being from a certain region. This would very easily allow them to see where the key should be registered against where it actually is.

Best case scenario is Ubisoft know who they sent that key to, so Games-R-US.ru bought that key, someone in the UK/US etc activated it, but its not illegal.

It's not illegal, no, but you are taking their word for it that that's what they did. Based on their previous actions, their word doesn't mean much.

Whats most likely happening is that people are buying copies of the game, with stolen CC details, or phished data, and then selling them as if they're legitimate keys.
The seller lists them on a key selling site, which... low and behold, is exactly what G2A and Kinguin are, and unsuspecting customers buy them, believing they're legit.
Eventually, its discovered the keys were acquired illegally, the real key owners then report the theft/fraud, and Ubisoft are shutting them down, because those keys, however they've been obtained, knowingly or not, were part of an illegal chain.

It's possible that this is what happened, however I don't think they would say anything but this. As I said before IF they are banning games because they're being used out of region, then it becomes significantly worse, they're dumb but they're not so dumb that they wouldn't understand this.

You wont get Ubisoft saying 'oh well, let em have it for free' cos someone has originally paid for those keys and got nothing because someone else intercepted them and sold them.

We know this based solely on the actions that they have been taking in the past few years. It seems that they would rather have less sales and profit by selling their games at stupid prices, than more sensible ones and sell a lot more. As it's simple economics that they would sell significantly more copies if they priced the games lower. But unfortunately they are one of those stupid companies that seemingly can only look at the profit per individual item, whilst ignoring volume of sales.

Also, the quote bringing pewdiepie into this mess is an absolute joke! Its more moronic nonsense.
PewDiePie isnt the face of G2A, just like JackFrags and a ton of others arent. They're simply affiliates, they spam their content with codes, viewers save a little on the purchases, and they make a little $$ in exchange.
They're not the ones selling anyone a game, Jack doesnt have a storefront, he doesnt sell you Far Cry 4 or The Crew, he simply tries to get you to buy from a site which allows people to sell keys.

It isn't an absolute joke at all. It's pretty straight forward. Ubisoft decide to sponsor him as they think people care about what he says, and they hope (or it's part of the terms) that by sponsoring him and giving him free stuff, that he will then say good things about Ubisoft products.

If they know what he says, and think understand and grasp that people listen to him and care about what he says, they'll know that he supports G2A and tells his fans to buy their games from there. Ergo, they are supporting what he's saying by sponsoring him. You really can't get around the fact that by sponsoring him, they are making a statement that says they think what he says is important.

This thread is full of the tin-hat brigade and people foaming at the mouth screaming conspiracies. You swap 'Assassins Creed key' for anything else, a Ford Focus, an iPhone, jewellery etc. Then swap G2A or Kinguin with [well known auction site], and theres not a single person in here who'd be arguing that its about how much was paid, that you should be entitled to keep illegally obtained goods (even with no wrong-doing). But cos its a video game, by a hate (rightly so) publisher, then its acceptable.

This is based solely on your assumption that what Ubisoft are saying is true. I'm not saying it's untrue, but you should know that their word isn't worth much, so I find it a bit strange why you're so willing to toe the line and accept that their word is their bond.

Also, FTR, i dont agree on the early statement that 'if you buy from these cheap sites, you accept the risk [that its stolen]'. What rubbish! Being cheap != stolen. There are plenty of legit sellers on these sites, but theres bound to be some looking to take advantage. If they havent got lots of reputation and the store doesnt offer insurance (not that you need to take it) then it should set alarm bells, rightly or wrongly.
Ive bought a handful of games from Kinguin, reputable sellers, and ive also gone direct to overseas stores like the Nuu one in Brazil (not sure about naming names, although we've listed G2A and Kinguin so...) and they've been fine. Why? Because they're legitimate keys, legally obtained, and sold at a price that happens to be considerably cheaper, because they've legally obtained them at cheaper prices.

A precedent has been set somewhat by some companies trying to control and fix their prices to stop people buying cheaper grey market games. These same companies whinge and moan about piracy and claim it "costs" them money. Whilst it's an assumption, it's not an unreasonable one to suggest that if they whinge about piracy, they're going to be foaming at the mouth over people getting the games for less than they believe they should have paid because they can at least attempt to attribute some form off "loss" to that.

What it really says is that Ubisoft's prices are too high, which they are.

 

[spoffle]

ahahahahah, that was a super funny post. I have always known you were a bit of a moron.

I'm unsure as to why you think he's a moron based on you not understanding the scenario he's set out.

Think about it critically. People who buy obscenely expensive handbags aren't buying them for the design, they are buying them as a statement of "look at my wealth".

Knock offs aren't ever going to damage the industry of obscenely price fashion accessories, because it's made up of 2 types of people. Those who are wealthy and want to show it off with such products, and those who want to copy that look because they're thick. There wealthy people are obviously not going to be buying the knockoffs and the chavs are obviously not going to be buying the originals.

 

[spoffle]

so technically if G2A/Kinguin bought these keys legally at stock price and sell them on at barely any profit, how does that make it different to me selling my game key on the MM like I did last month?

Yes, its not on an industrial scale but the principle is the same, the buyer paid far less than Ubi store price (£20 instead of £45) and he wasn't the first 'owner' of that code but the first to activate it, so legally where does he stand?????

I know they wont take it off him but if its all legally bought in the first place why is there a problem?

The problem is that such matters are yet to be tried in a court of law (except for the EU with regards to software licenses in general, rather than interactive media specifically).

However, the publishers or developers typically like to fall back on the terms they set out in their EULAs, and state that you are not entitled to re-sell keys, and if you do it voids your license to use said software.

If taken to court, this wouldn't stand up at all. The problem is getting it there.

 

[spoffle]

Whoever sold the key/s, only to find out that the payment was fraudulent, is almost certainly the one who's lost out.
Where the dominos stop, i dont know. I suspect at the person who got scammed originally.

I've just been reading the thread over on NeoGAF and theres a chap in there called 'SirJackDaniels' whos claiming that he regularly supplies sites like G2A and Kinguin with their games, that he's moving millions of business with the likes of Ubisoft, and that the keys which Ubisoft are claiming are stolen, most certainly are not.

What i do find interesting, as i didnt know this, is that its illegal for these sites to sell stripped keys. Buying a retail copy, removing content from it, and then selling its content individually, goes against copyright laws.

SirJackDaniels has a contract with Ubisoft to buy and sell retail copies 'as is', but he's emphasising that that contract starts and stops with him, theres no obligation or contract drawn between the places he then ships games to (which he includes Amazon in).


www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=979151&page=13
His comments (so far, are on pg13, 14 & 15).

So by splitting retail copies to sell as digital codes, these sites are breaking copyright law. Meanwhile, Ubisoft are also breaking the law by revoking the licenses, when their correct path of action is with the company selling them.

This still doesnt explain how Ubisoft knows which of the keys SJD had sold went to Amazon and were sold as boxed retail copies, and which went to G2A and Kinguin. The best they could do is IP locate them, so if its activated in Germany, and the key was for sale in the EU, then it'd be undetectable however its sold. If you bought a key from an Indian retail box, and activated it in Norway, then it'll be pulled (still couldnt prove that the Indian store didnt ship the boxed retail game!).

I don't buy that they are actually infringing on copyright law at all. I think it's more a case of it goes against the terms set out by the publishers and someone is either confusing it with copyright, or maliciously claiming it's an infringement of copyright.

As there isn't actually any "copying" going on, and the games aren't being unlawfully distributed in terms of copies made then sold or supplied to other parties.

They are simply buying a digital product and adjusting how you receive and use that product, since you need to register the keys to use the games, the key itself, not the disk or box actually becomes the "goods" as your usage of the disk is contingent on the key.

 

[neoboy]

Really hope they don't finish Beyond and Evil 2 because now I want to go out of my way to avoid their games.