Poll: UEFA Euro 2020 Final Italy v England ** spoilers ** [Sunday 11th July 2021]

Shall we lock this thread for the 90 minutes the game is on?

  • Yes

    Votes: 94 43.1%
  • No

    Votes: 124 56.9%

  • Total voters
    218
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I've been thinking about this and I have come to the conclusion Southgate flattered to deceive. His way worked for too long.
We'll never know what would have happened if he had played a more exciting team, but it is tragic that we will never know.
The tactic of bringing on substitutes purely for penalties was just terrible, the players hadn't really got into the feel on pitch and new they had one use, which just heaped pressure on. I just don't know why he didn't play Grealish and Rashford the whole time. Presumably Fowden was injured or something.

It was a lost opportunity as usual, it was there for the taking. Those players will be scarred, the older fans like me have seen the last chance for glory in their lifetime squandered.

Southgate has done well with his own very limited abilities, he was dour as a player as well, time to go.
 
Grealish has scored one penalty in his entire career, I don't even think he's Villa's pen taker.

The more I think about it the more i'm coming round to the idea that the penalty takers didn't actually matter. I'm not a fan of subs taking pens, but looking at the team, I'd say only DCL would have been a better option than the players selected.

Oh and I really hope we have a difficult run in the WC, just to see what the team is made of and stop all this easy route nonsense.
 
Just resign yourself to it. There's too many in the "best England manager, ever" camp right now.

They will need something like what you describe to realise Southgate is actually quite poor.

Hopefully he doesn't luck out with an easy run next time. Hopefully we have to beat the likes of Italy, Spain, Brazil to get to the final (or crash out).

At some point after Southgate refuses to learn anything from his mistakes, and proves beyond a doubt that he only has the one game plan (turtle), people will stop thinking he's some kind of tactical genius.

I mean results wise he is (one of) the best England manager ever lol. He's won penalty shootouts, beaten Germany in a knock out game and got to semis + finals in consecutive tournaments. These are huge strides for the England team. That doesn't mean he's the perfect manager - He's clearly lacking a bit in some areas but hopefully he'll continue improving. The only thing that really does worry me is that we lost in the exact same way two tournaments running (early lead -> sit back -> eventually concede and go on to lose).
 
Harry Wilson got a straight red for something similar in the Wales v Denmark game although I'd agree neither were reds but Jorginho on Grealish could have easily been a red.

Chiellini got exactly what he should have and was expecting in a yellow card, no chance it was a red. The Jorginho one however was a very strong challenge and could easily have been given as a red, particularly if it wasn't in a final.
 
same

last major tournament semis

this one finals

thats clear progress imo

It entirely depends on how you get there though.

Beating Ukraine whose whole team combined is worth less than a player on your bench then no it's not progress at all.

Then being taken to extra time by Denmark?

The teams that deserve to get to finals would easily take care of sides like this. The only hard game you had was Germany until you faced Italy.

Which means luck played a huge part not the actual players or coaches.
 
I mean results wise he is (one of) the best England manager ever lol. He's won penalty shootouts, beaten Germany in a knock out game and got to semis + finals in consecutive tournaments. These are huge strides for the England team. That doesn't mean he's the perfect manager - He's clearly lacking a bit in some areas but hopefully he'll continue improving. The only thing that really does worry me is that we lost in the exact same way two tournaments running (early lead -> sit back -> eventually concede and go on to lose).

There is a pretty strong theme where games his hand is forced and he can't revert to type so to speak we do well, when he can revert to type we make things much harder for ourselves than we need to. I'm not sure he'll ever improve on that as people who do that for so long tend to be blindly invested in an ideology.
 
It entirely depends on how you get there though.

Beating Ukraine whose whole team combined is worth less than a player on your bench then no it's not progress at all.

Then being taken to extra time by Denmark?

The teams that deserve to get to finals would easily take care of sides like this. The only hard game you had was Germany until you faced Italy.

Which means luck played a huge part not the actual players or coaches.


Bore off pal

i couldn’t care who we beat to get to the final or how easy or tough it was

fact is i saw my country in an european final for first time in my lifetime and I'm proud of what england did and i look forward to progress continuing into the world cup next winter
 
It's as if we're living in a world where a Man United vs Liverpool Champions League final could end with the players and both sets of fans laughing and hugging each other. It's only a game after all :vomit:

In sport, there's only ever one winner, the rest are losers. The best learn from defeat and become winners, the rest accept defeat and never succeed.

Hopefully Southgate and the players learn from this, become better as individuals and a team and succeed in a future tournament but public acceptance isn't going to help them achieve that imo.
Indeed and by that definition we're winners more than we are losers.

You should always train as if you're at least number 2 - and losing could actually give us more energy than winning would.
 
Felt sick reading my Facebook feed this morning. Not because there was anything abusive posted but because failure finally appears to have been normalised. So many people saying it doesn't matter we lost, all that matters is how Southgate conducted himself throughout the tournament.

Sports about winning. End of.
Yep these type of opportunities are once in a lifetime its all about winning, the Italians know that. At the end of the day Southgate is average manager promoted above his abilities he had a great chance and threw it away. I actually think that for the final he didn't have scooby doo.
 
I’m puzzled as to why people are having a pop at Saka.

Did he play worse than the likes of Grealish or Kane last night?

Last night Saka was very poor. Second best, not winning the ball back not doing much with it. The run of games leading to yesterday though he was fantastic so it was worthy of a sub imo.

Kane did some okay hold up work but the lads at the back mullered him like most teams have tried all tournament.
 
It entirely depends on how you get there though.

Beating Ukraine whose whole team combined is worth less than a player on your bench then no it's not progress at all.

Then being taken to extra time by Denmark?

The teams that deserve to get to finals would easily take care of sides like this. The only hard game you had was Germany until you faced Italy.

Which means luck played a huge part not the actual players or coaches.
Italy were taken to extra time against Austria... Does that mean Mancini doesn't deserve plaudits?
 
I mean results wise he is (one of) the best England manager ever lol. He's won penalty shootouts, beaten Germany in a knock out game and got to semis + finals in consecutive tournaments. These are huge strides for the England team. That doesn't mean he's the perfect manager - He's clearly lacking a bit in some areas but hopefully he'll continue improving. The only thing that really does worry me is that we lost in the exact same way two tournaments running (early lead -> sit back -> eventually concede and go on to lose).
Isn’t that down to the players winning in spite of him rather than because of him? I’m sure he’d be long gone by now if he had a poor squad.
 
I mean results wise he is (one of) the best England manager ever lol. He's won penalty shootouts, beaten Germany in a knock out game and got to semis + finals in consecutive tournaments. These are huge strides for the England team. That doesn't mean he's the perfect manager - He's clearly lacking a bit in some areas but hopefully he'll continue improving. The only thing that really does worry me is that we lost in the exact same way two tournaments running (early lead -> sit back -> eventually concede and go on to lose).
Knockout football can deceive. Unlike a league format, where England would finish up largely where the deserve to be. You know, each team playing every other team twice.

In a knockout tournament, your "progress" through the tournament can be as much about which half of the draw you were in.

Ultimately, in the WC and in the Euros, performance is the only way to judge imho. Ignore the results and judge 100% on the performance.

The only thing that really does worry me is that we lost in the exact same way two tournaments running (early lead -> sit back -> eventually concede and go on to lose).
This is Southgate. The team might be improving/maturing/etc. But Southgate isn't learning, isn't changing. He is and always will be a super defensive manager with a tactic of turtling instead of going out to hurt the other teams by scoring.
 
I’m puzzled as to why people are having a pop at Saka.

Did he play worse than the likes of Grealish or Kane last night?
I'm a massive fan of Saka, and think he's as exciting as Foden and Mount as a prospect, but yes, he was poor last night. Grealish came on and created chances within minutes. I thought Kane was largely very good, but perhaps not in the role that people expected him to play.

Saka is one of my favourite players in this team but was objectively poor last night. Not his fault, he's 19 and will be patchy, and was brought on at a really tough time for the team when we were being battered and he couldn't get into the game. But he was poor.
 
It entirely depends on how you get there though.

Beating Ukraine whose whole team combined is worth less than a player on your bench then no it's not progress at all.

Then being taken to extra time by Denmark?

The teams that deserve to get to finals would easily take care of sides like this. The only hard game you had was Germany until you faced Italy.

Which means luck played a huge part not the actual players or coaches.
oh please......
 
Grealish has scored one penalty in his entire career, I don't even think he's Villa's pen taker.

The more I think about it the more i'm coming round to the idea that the penalty takers didn't actually matter. I'm not a fan of subs taking pens, but looking at the team, I'd say only DCL would have been a better option than the players selected.

Oh and I really hope we have a difficult run in the WC, just to see what the team is made of and stop all this easy route nonsense.
Luke shaw, raheem sterling? in form players that have found the back of the net this tournament and have more experience of big games and high pressure situations.
 
Grealish strikes me as the kind of player who would have just smashed it past their keeper with one worries. Same for Shaw.

Probably would have won had the right penalty takers been chosen

Shaw was lucky with his penalty against Villarreal, maybe didn't feel confident after that one
 
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