Poll: WengIn or WengOut?

[opethdisciple]

The new money in football has polluted your idea of success. Unless you are winning the league regularly like Chelsea and the Manchester clubs, cups do still count. You think Tottenham or Liverpool fans wouldn't enjoy a Fa Cup win?

Yes as a club we should be finishing higher, but not as a squad. We have been underfunded for over a decade now.

I do agree and see your point.

But it also highlights to me a small club mentality where we are happy with an FA Cup win.

I'm not unhappy with it, but when Wenger was telling us that finishing 4th was like winning a cup that's what he meant.

It's infinitely better to finish 4th than to win the FA Cup. Winning the FA Cup really doesn't have much of a significance in the bigger picture.

Give Spurs the option, we finish 4th they 5th but they win the FA Cup. I think your find they will take 4th every time.

Underfunded... compared to City yes. But surely we have more cash than Spurs?

It's juts mismanagement on all levels that's the issue. Too many things to list.

 

[sneakysnail]

Aye as liverpool fan i would take 4th or higher in that scenario as well. I'd rather have a good season rather than a little icing on the cake at the end.

I think the bigger problem with arsenal is that they just aren't entertaining to watch. To many boring games and embarrassing defeats. People can accept boring football if it brings success and they can accept stylish attacking football that doesn't win everything but you can't have both of the negatives.

Liverpool and Tottenham probably won't win anything this year but they've still been great to watch. Winning cups is more about bragging rights than entertainment imo. Both is nice but you can do without one more than the other.

 

[rebel rebel]

I do agree and see your point.

But it also highlights to me a small club mentality where we are happy with an FA Cup win.

I'm not unhappy with it, but when Wenger was telling us that finishing 4th was like winning a cup that's what he meant.

It's infinitely better to finish 4th than to win the FA Cup. Winning the FA Cup really doesn't have much of a significance in the bigger picture.

Give Spurs the option, we finish 4th they 5th but they win the FA Cup. I think your find they will take 4th every time.

Underfunded... compared to City yes. But surely we have more cash than Spurs?

It's juts mismanagement on all levels that's the issue. Too many things to list.

Do you not feel that we became blasé with finishing 4th for so long? We were going out of the champioms league as soon as the knock-out stage started, and it was no longer fun. Where as Tottenham and Liverpool were finishing outside the top 4 and champions league was the holygrail for them. Now we are desperate to get back in, and the pressure on the manager is too much.
I think it would take at least 200mill for us to seriously start to challenge again. Two world class centrebacks, a new goalie and a proper holding midfielder for starters. And I'm not sure the board would release that amount of cash.
Tottenham and Liverpool are having their best ever spells in the Premiership, and haven't won it yet.

 

[rebel rebel]

Aye as liverpool fan i would take 4th or higher in that scenario as well. I'd rather have a good season rather than a little icing on the cake at the end.

I think the bigger problem with arsenal is that they just aren't entertaining to watch. To many boring games and embarrassing defeats. People can accept boring football if it brings success and they can accept stylish attacking football that doesn't win everything but you can't have both of the negatives.

Liverpool and Tottenham probably won't win anything this year but they've still been great to watch. Winning cups is more about bragging rights than entertainment imo. Both is nice but you can do without one more than the other.

When Arsenal were playing attractive football but winning nothing, we were told that wasn't enough. Now Liverpool and Tottenham are good to watch, suddenly that's good enough....

Arsenal seem to never be up for the games, but when we are we can pull off a result. Last seasons Fa Cup semi and final spring to mind.

 

[BaZ87]

You can't look at it is CL vs a domestic cup - what's best depends on the situation a club is in. Football is about entertainment and winning and ultimately winning the biggest prizes. If you want the best, most entertaining players and to progress as a club so that you can ever compete (consistently at least) for the biggest prizes then you need to be in the CL. The problem comes when, as what happened at Arsenal, you're no longer progressing and the aim is simply to qualify for the CL in which case give me a FA Cup any day of the week.

On the issue of just playing for a top 4 spot - this is something that stems from the owner, not Wenger. Kroenke doesn't give a **** whether Arsenal win the League or not, he wants the biggest return on the smallest investment and up until last season he was getting that. Given Kroenke's objectives he'd have been mad to allow major investment in the squad - we've all seen that you can spend 100's of millions and miss out on the CL altogether let alone win anything. Kroenke was happy to coast along finishing 2nd-4th spending very little, just like the Glazers were at Utd up until their place in the CL came under threat.

As I've said previously, even over the period in which Arsenal haven't won a major title, you can't say that Wenger has underachieved. He's never had more than the 4th biggest budget (wages & transfer fees combined) but consistently finished 4th or better. Without checking I'd imagine that Liverpool & Arsenal's budgets over the last 2 seasons have been fairly even (4th & 5th biggest) and ultimately only 1 point separated them for 4th in the League. It was about par for the course*. The problem is that despite the constraints he's working within, Arsenal have gone from slightly overachieving relative to their finances to now underachieving and it's only getting worse and Wenger doesn't appear capable of turning things around.

*Yes, I know Spurs done better and Utd done worse than par.

 

[sneakysnail]

When Arsenal were playing attractive football but winning nothing, we were told that wasn't enough. Now Liverpool and Tottenham are good to watch, suddenly that's good enough....

for the short term. If they kept going this way and didn't win anything for 5 more years there's not a chance either manager would still be in a job. Both are still playing for something this season and they've had recent Cup finals as well.

 

[BaZ87]

for the short term. If they kept going this way and didn't win anything for 5 more years there's not a chance either manager would still be in a job. Both are still playing for something this season and they've had recent Cup finals as well.

As above, it's about progress. Spurs and Liverpool are clearly building towards something. If and when that progress stalls then questions will be asked.

 

[rebel rebel]

for the short term. If they kept going this way and didn't win anything for 5 more years there's not a chance either manager would still be in a job. Both are still playing for something this season and they've had recent Cup finals as well.

Tottenham haven't reached the FA Cup final since 1991. I know quite a few Spurs fans that would appreciate winning the cup.

 

[Trusty]

I'm not sure what Arsenal won last year has anything to do with it to be honest, and anyone in the league is no where near as difficult as some of the other teams still in the Europa

Yes I can say it with confidence because Arsenal continually show how mentally weak they are

When is the cut off date for winning stuff then? This season hasn't even finished. I also don't know what you mean by the teams in the Europa league are stronger than the premiership, maybe some sides in the middle of the table and at the bottom, but the top 5 all got through the group stages in the CL. Surely you realise the CL sides that come down to the Europa League finished 3rd in the group stages?

Yes, you might believe Arsenal won't win the Europa League, its misguided though. It's football, anyone can win on the day.

 

[opethdisciple]

There is a way to lose tho. Big difference between going down fighting with pride compared to just walking around on the pitch, looking disinterested and committing school boy errors.

I don't think Pochettino or Klopp would get the sack if after say ten years neither have won anything, BUT during this time they have come close and have been competing at the top. That's all you ask. COMPETE.

Arsenal are simply not competing. I think that is the issue we have in a nutshell.

Arsenal are losing in the most predictable way for the last decade. Everyone's nan and dog can see what areas of the squad need sorting and yet Arsenal do nothing about it season after season. The 50 million we spent on Aubamayang, could for example have gone on Laporte whom city signed.

We need a defender more than a striker.

The things we hear about, like Wenger doesn't give much coaching time to the defence and for Bould to work with them. A season or two ago there was an accusation that Wenger doesn't analyse the opposition pre games. Now it's that we don't have a structure and just play off the cuff football.

Also Wright saying that some players don't turn up to training and have to have delegates go to their houses to try to get them to come in for training!

Shocking if true!

Wenger is also making decisions such as choosing Xhaka over Kante when both where available.

In respect to Xhaka he was in the Bundesliga team of the season that year so on paper good signing.

I think the playing squad is much better than they seem, it's just whatever Wenger is doing or not doing that's the problem.

The coaching is now under suspicion.

As Neville put it, it's ingrained in them all these issues. That stems from the manager.

 

[Trusty]

By progress, do you mean the previous season or something? What exactly do you mean. I don't really know what people mean by that when it's mentioned on the radio and the News.

Arsenal have finished above those sides 2 out the last 3 years and won 2 FA cups in the process, whilst playing a decent brand of football. Am I missing something?

As Neville put it, it's ingrained in them all these issues. That stems from the manager.

Don't be confusing Neville with a Wenger out fan, he's the opposite, this was filmed before the Chelsea final.

**I do understand DT's concerns in that video, it's understandable after spending so much money over the years**

 

[BaZ87]

By progress, do you mean the previous season or something? What exactly do you mean. I don't really know what people mean by that when it's mentioned on the radio and the News.

Arsenal have finished above those sides, 2 out the last 3 years and won 2 FA cups in the process. Am I missing something?

You don't understand what progress means?

3 seasons ago Arsenal finished comfortably above both Spurs and Liverpool. Over the last 3 seasons Spurs and Liverpool have continuously improved (progressed) where as Arsenal have got worse resulting in Arsenal finishing behind both Spurs and Liverpool last season and on course to finish even further behind this season. It's not simply about the end result either - Spurs might end up finishing slightly worse off this season compared to last and in Klopp's first (3/4) season Liverpool finished lower than the previous season but in both cases you could see the club building towards something. Not only are Arsenal in decline but you can't see what they/Wenger are doing to correct that decline either - their squad looks in as worse a state as I can ever remember and where they once had a clear footballing philosophy and were generally regarded as the best footballing side if not overall side in the League, they've lost that too.

 

[McBain]

No Arsenal fan but he should've gone a long time ago imo.

 

[Trusty]

You don't understand what progress means?

3 seasons ago Arsenal finished comfortably above both Spurs and Liverpool. Over the last 3 seasons Spurs and Liverpool have continuously improved (progressed) where as Arsenal have got worse resulting in Arsenal finishing behind both Spurs and Liverpool last season and on course to finish even further behind this season. It's not simply about the end result either - Spurs might end up finishing slightly worse off this season compared to last and in Klopp's first (3/4) season Liverpool finished lower than the previous season but in both cases you could see the club building towards something. Not only are Arsenal in decline but you can't see what they/Wenger are doing to correct that decline either - their squad looks in as worse a state as I can ever remember and where they once had a clear footballing philosophy and were generally regarded as the best footballing side if not overall side in the League, they've lost that too.

Yeah, I understand what progress means, obviously. I just don't understand it within the terms that are being defined, and I don't agree that Arsenal are in this incredible decline. Yeah, they finished outside the top 4 last year, I'm not sure how thats such a massive issue, they could be back in the CL again next year, so they've not being in the Champions League 1 season out the last 22? I mean, C'mon...

 

[opethdisciple]

Hopefully this is true. The board have set the minimum expected results. Top 4 or winning the Europa League.

Else major changes at the club. But it seems to the playing staff rather than the manager.

This is exactly what I mean. I'm sure at United last season, although Mourinho wasn't under than same kind of pressure, he himself would have set the basic requirements which is top four or the Europa league.

Like I said earlier in this thread. Nothing else matters.

 

[BaZ87]

Yeah, I understand what progress means, obviously. I just don't understand it within the terms that are being defined, and I don't agree that Arsenal are in this incredible decline. Yeah, they finished outside the top 4 last year, I'm not sure how thats such a massive issue, they could be back in the CL again next year, so they've not being in the Champions League 1 season out the last 22? I mean, C'mon...

How can't you understand it in this context. Arsenal have gone from comfortably finishing in the top 4 spots, to narrowly missing out on the top 4, to now sitting 6th and a full 10 points (11 when you factor in GD) behind 4th. That's not decline?

As for you could be back in the CL next season - sure you could but it's hardly likely. Even if Arsenal do with the Europa League, all it will do is mask the problems. Arsenal have fallen quite a distance behind the other 5 and there's been no sign over the last 5 years that Wenger can turn things around.

I'm sure at United last season, although Mourinho wasn't under than same kind of pressure, he himself would have set the basic requirements which is top four or the Europa league.

Mourinho actually said at the start of last season that the target was the League title.

 

[Trusty]

How can't you understand it in this context. Arsenal have gone from comfortably finishing in the top 4 spots, to narrowly missing out on the top 4, to now sitting 6th and a full 10 points (11 when you factor in GD) behind 4th. That's not decline?

As for you could be back in the CL next season - sure you could but it's hardly likely. Even if Arsenal do with the Europa League, all it will do is mask the problems. Arsenal have fallen quite a distance behind the other 5 and there's been no sign over the last 5 years that Wenger can turn things around.

It's a decline this season I suppose. Arsenal have still won more trophies than Liverpool over the last few years, so even in Arsenal's 'apparent' decline, it's still better than Liverpool or Spurs.

Take Leicester for example, when they won the title, we didn't all go and say Leicester are now top dog, an isolated season doesn't tell the full picture.

If Klopp finished out of the top 4 one season, you aren't going to say 'sack, Klopp'. Or will you?

At the end of the day, I think Wenger is nearly 70, he's going to be handing over the reigns pretty soon, it's just about picking the right person and time.

 

[BaZ87]

It looks like progress isn't the only word you can't understand, it's decline as well. Arsenal have gone from 2nd to 5th to now a distant 6th so no, it's not just this season.

You're absolutely right about Leicester. You can't just look at a one off season, you have to look deeper which is why sometimes the absolute end result doesn't tell the whole story. The fact that Arsenal narrowly missed out on the top 4 last season wasn't the killer for them/Wenger - the fact that Arsenal had failed to show any signs over the previous 5/6 years that they were improving and could ever reach the level of the side that was ultimately winning the major honours was the big issue. Arsenal had stood still for years - at no point over the last half dozen years did you ever believe Arsenal were going to seriously challenge for the CL or League or were building towards doing so and what determined their final league position was the strength of the other sides as nothing changed with Arsenal. The ****'s hit the fan over the past 2 seasons because the quality of Arsenal's squad has got worse and at least 4 of the other 5 sides have got their act together.

As for your question on Klopp. The circumstances around how and why we missed out on the CL would determine how much pressure Klopp's job was under. This Liverpool side's still in the building process and if we narrowly missed out while remaining competitive but there was still a clear plan of how we're looking to improve moving forwards then of course he wouldn't be sacked. If we reached the stage Arsenal are in where performance levels have dropped significantly, we lost our identity, the manager lost a sizeable chunk of the supporters and there was no clear plan to turn things around then I suspect, like we did with Rodgers, he'd be replaced as soon as we could get the right person in to replace him.

 

[jonneymendoza]

interesting discussions here and some good vaid points

 

[Trusty]

It looks like progress isn't the only word you can't understand, it's decline as well. Arsenal have gone from 2nd to 5th to now a distant 6th so no, it's not just this season.

You're absolutely right about Leicester. You can't just look at a one off season, you have to look deeper which is why sometimes the absolute end result doesn't tell the whole story. The fact that Arsenal narrowly missed out on the top 4 last season wasn't the killer for them/Wenger - the fact that Arsenal had failed to show any signs over the previous 5/6 years that they were improving and could ever reach the level of the side that was ultimately winning the major honours was the big issue. Arsenal had stood still for years - at no point over the last half dozen years did you ever believe Arsenal were going to seriously challenge for the CL or League or were building towards doing so and what determined their final league position was the strength of the other sides as nothing changed with Arsenal. The ****'s hit the fan over the past 2 seasons because the quality of Arsenal's squad has got worse and at least 4 of the other 5 sides have got their act together.

As for your question on Klopp. The circumstances around how and why we missed out on the CL would determine how much pressure Klopp's job was under. This Liverpool side's still in the building process and if we narrowly missed out while remaining competitive but there was still a clear plan of how we're looking to improve moving forwards then of course he wouldn't be sacked. If we reached the stage Arsenal are in where performance levels have dropped significantly, we lost our identity, the manager lost a sizeable chunk of the supporters and there was no clear plan to turn things around then I suspect, like we did with Rodgers, he'd be replaced as soon as we could get the right person in to replace him.

When will Liverpool finish the building process then? At the end of this season? You obviously have timeframe in mind..