Why are you not vegan....

[413x]

It was a question for the assertors that "eating meat can never be morally ok". I don't think other meat-eating animals stop to worry about the morality of it. They eat each other alive. How about that for suffering?

Other people commiting murder doesn't mean I'm going to say... Oh well. Its happening somewhere. Its fine for me to do it.

Just because something/someone else is doing something doesn't mean your efforts are pointless.

If everyone had that view point nothing would change.

 

[200sols]

So Killing animals for food is murder?

 

[darkgen]

So, has the OPs question been answered yet?

 

[Cleisthenes]

Even during the first lockdown when shelves were empty, the Vegan shelves were still full.

Maybe it's because vegans/veggies aren't daft enough to panic buy

(I'm not veggie)

 

[Cleisthenes]

That would 100% be considered legislation against the poor. People would lose their ****.

And therein lies a big issue

 

[visibleman]

I don't think something we manufactured going extinct is really important.
These 'breeds' would dissappear. But the species wouldn't go extinct (ie ones which do live in a natural habitat).

Not using it as an excuse or reason for or against but it does make the whole animal welfare motion a tad hypocritical, which is why those changing or preaching veganism tend to brush it off.

They'd be culled anyway. Their fate is sealed. But no more animals would go through the same processing.

In reality it would happen gradually.

Was thinking of animals other than typical livestock we use which would most likely need to be regularly culled to keep numbers in check, ie - game birds etc.

 

[Junglist]

So Killing animals for food is murder?

Apparently so and humans are immoral for eating meat.
If people don't want to eat meat due to animal suffering I get that and find it commendable. But when you start tossing words around like murder it just makes me lose a bit of respect due to them having to use such emotional words.

I don't even take the 'environmental' argument seriously unless said person is only eating locally sourced, and in season, vegetables/fruits. If you're bulking your diet up with fancy things which don't grow on these isles and you need to drag some quinoa or avocados from South America to here, I assume you can't care that much about the environment.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

I don't think something we manufactured going extinct is really important.
These 'breeds' would dissappear. But the species wouldn't go extinct (ie ones which do live in a natural habitat).

There are no wild cattle the auroch is extinct and has been for centuries the only thing left is domestic cattle who have been bred for human use/consumption and have varying degrees of dependence on humans many can't even give birth without intervention the fantasy that all domestic animals will be freed to frolic through arcardian fields is pure fantasy there aren't many wild places left almost everything is in human hands in one form or another or soon will be.

 

[visibleman]

If everyone had that view point nothing would change.

Let's be honest, the planet isn't going to become entirely vegan. Animal use will massively lower but consumption will be for the elite and wealthy that can afford it.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Yeah its a poor argument people often throw out 'the cows will go extinct'

It simply doesn't hold.

So if we stop using cows for milk & food what will happen to them?
Are you going to look after them and make sure they get shelter in the winter?
I somehow doubt it and basically sometime in the future there won't be any free roaming cows in Europe because they wouldn't be able to survive in the winter.
It simply holds that they will die out.

 

[413x]

So Killing animals for food is murder?

I'm using it as an example only to say because others are doing SOMETHING it makes me not doing it pointless.

The point was because nature is cruel it justifies us doing the same.

But we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

 

[413x]

So if we stop using cows for milk & food what will happen to them?
Are you going to look after them and make sure they get shelter in the winter?
I somehow doubt it and basically sometime in the future there won't be any free roaming cows in Europe because they wouldn't be able to survive in the winter.
It simply holds that they will die out.

No they will be culled. They'd be culled anyway. Thier calves are culled. All the males (bar a few) are culled.

Thier fate is sealed. What you stop is the same same for others down the generations.

Them dying out is no bad thing.
They are completely artificial anyway.


You can justify your actions anyway you want. But at the end of the day everyone has a certain tolerance for cruelty/environmental damage. I'm not sure why so many people cannot admit that to themselves (some can).
Intensive farming is cruel. There's no way to skirt around it.
If you're OK with that and understand it fine. We all partake to a certain degree. That doesn't make it ok/or not OK.

It should just be acknowledged so people can make thier own opinions knowing it

 

[Minusorange]

So if we stop using cows for milk & food what will happen to them?
Are you going to look after them and make sure they get shelter in the winter?
I somehow doubt it and basically sometime in the future there won't be any free roaming cows in Europe because they wouldn't be able to survive in the winter.
It simply holds that they will die out.

Why does it matter ? Extinction is a part of life, all living things will go extinct at some point, these animals only exist in their form they are in now because we domesticated them, they're only slightly more natural than processed meat

I honestly don't get this mentality of "some life is better than no life"

 

[413x]

Why does it matter ? Extinction is a part of life, all living things will go extinct at some point, these animals only exist in their form they are in now because we domesticated them, they're only slightly more natural than processed meat

I honestly don't get this mentality of "some life is better than no life"

I guarantee if you put us as individuals into that environment of intensive farming people's opinions on extinction argument would change. You'd gladly take the chop and not want your kids to undergo the same fate.

Ie you'd chose extinction.

 

[Scort]

I have no problem consuming meat, nothing beats a lovely bit of roast beef on a Sunday - but I would prefer that the welfare of animals was better; but that's not something I would ever personally be able to verify, so just have to accept that it is what it is. Even if there were sweeping legislation to ensure that animals are treated well/slaughtered ‘kindly’ – I very much doubt it could ever be enforced, to the degree you could eat meat guilt free.

Where possible (financially etc) I like to get my meat directly from a local slaughter house – the meat is so much better quality than supermarket stuff, and bacon specifically being off the chart good, the water-injected nonsense from supermarkets simply cannot compete; a bit like the fruit and veg I get from the local greengrocer.

I haven’t seen any of the shock videos out there, showing exactly how food is made – as I’m not of that sort of mental disposition, where I want to see animals suffer. Like most meat-eaters, I am vaguely aware of what happens, but don’t need to see it. As for things like chicks being ground up alive, that is beyond barbaric, as I am sure all meat-eaters would agree; but the businesses responsible aren’t going to spend the time or money on relocating said animals, or feeding them up and keeping them – so grinding up the poor souls is probably just a financial decision for them. But yes, something like that is inhuman, but it won’t stop me eating meat – as taking my business elsewhere wouldn’t change a thing.

I also don’t get the mentality of the recent rise in anti-dairy, though I’ve not looked into it in any great deal (why would I?), I vaguely recall seeing some protest-esq material that accused milk drinkers of stealing food from baby animals…. mental.

To coin the ***** Jeremy Kyle saying “at the ned of the day” I’d never dare think I have the right to tell a vegetarian they should eat meat, and likewise, I don’t believe a vegetarian (or vegan) has any right to tell me I shouldn’t.

 

[Ahleckz]

And that's an opinion you are entitled to but to say that Vegans have the moral high ground and pass it off as fact rather than opinion is wrong and bordering on arrogant.

So let's stop meat production and animal products of all kinds including fishing and ban meat and animal derived products to the UK.

How do we feed this country?
Where do we redeploy the workers?

Lol, what? It’s absolutely fact. Meat eaters kill sentient, clever, intelligent, caring animals when they don’t need to. I’m one of them. But, don’t pretend that it’s morally ok to kill in the way we do for food production. It’s not. How can it be?

I’ve not advocated for banning meat or animal products, but I think it’s the way the country is going. What can those that rely on it do? Diversify. Retrain.

We feed the country by growing more, by using our fields more efficiently. There’ll be plenty of jobs in a veg farm.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Them dying out is no bad thing.
They are completely artificial anyway.

and there we have it, if you can live with that then great.
I'll wear the t-shirt saying 'This person next to me was responsible for the extinction of farm animals'.

I honestly don't get this mentality of "some life is better than no life"

I'd let Panda's die out, we waste too much money on them when they are saying 'It's our time'.

 

[413x]

I have no problem consuming meat, nothing beats a lovely bit of roast beef on a Sunday - but I would prefer that the welfare of animals was better; but that's not something I would ever personally be able to verify, so just have to accept that it is what it is. Even if there were sweeping legislation to ensure that animals are treated well/slaughtered ‘kindly’ – I very much doubt it could ever be enforced, to the degree you could eat meat guilt free.

Where possible (financially etc) I like to get my meat directly from a local slaughter house – the meat is so much better quality than supermarket stuff, and bacon specifically being off the chart good, the water-injected nonsense from supermarkets simply cannot compete; a bit like the fruit and veg I get from the local greengrocer.

I haven’t seen any of the shock videos out there, showing exactly how food is made – as I’m not of that sort of mental disposition, where I want to see animals suffer. Like most meat-eaters, I am vaguely aware of what happens, but don’t need to see it. As for things like chicks being ground up alive, that is beyond barbaric, as I am sure all meat-eaters would agree; but the businesses responsible aren’t going to spend the time or money on relocating said animals, or feeding them up and keeping them – so grinding up the poor souls is probably just a financial decision for them. But yes, something like that is inhuman, but it won’t stop me eating meat – as taking my business elsewhere wouldn’t change a thing.

I also don’t get the mentality of the recent rise in anti-dairy, though I’ve not looked into it in any great deal (why would I?), I vaguely recall seeing some protest-esq material that accused milk drinkers of stealing food from baby animals…. mental.

To coin the ***** Jeremy Kyle saying “at the ned of the day” I’d never dare think I have the right to tell a vegetarian they should eat meat, and likewise, I don’t believe a vegetarian (or vegan) has any right to tell me I shouldn’t.

Without knowing you're unlikely to change. Its because I do know that I've made changes. I wish I could unknow and live a bit more care free. But my mind loves to pull out the empathy card. And I just can't handle it.

It's hard to know and carry on as you were. Because some of the stuff is.. Well... Can't finish the video type of stuff.


The dairy one is particularly brutal. It's not stealing milk from baby cows.. It's what happens to the baby cows etc.


Maceration of chicks is actually one of the more ethical 'instant' ways of despatching an animal. I do not recommend watching any animal cruelty/farming content if that is what you class as barbaric.

 

[413x]

and there we have it, if you can live with that then great.
I'll wear the t-shirt saying 'This person next to me was responsible for the extinction of farm animals'.



I'd let Panda's die out, we waste too much money on them when they are saying 'It's our time'.

It's going to happen. All those animals will go to slaughter regardless of whether veganism got adopted tomorrow world wide or not.

 

[dowie]

Is it wrong to eat something that hasn't been killed to be eaten? I mean things that died for other reasons (old age, fell off a cliff, road kill). I remember hearing that Buddhists can eat animals that died for non-eating reasons.

That's the sort of pragmatic approach some vegans could take and still be adhering to vegan principles without blindly following rules for the sake of it...

For example, meat thrown into supermarket bins, roadkill etc.. could be eaten. Eggs from hens that have been rescued/would have otherwise been killed and that lay eggs more slowly. Some animals aren't sentient, I don't see the distinction ethically between killing muscles and oysters vs killing say a venus fly trap or cutting down a tree.

Or actually, scrap that, I'd say cutting down a tree could be far far worse than eating some oysters as it ends the life of potentially thousands of insects... if you're happy to make use of wood, and contribute to the destruction of tens of thousands of bugs for every tree cut down then can you really get all moral about someone eating say a prawn cocktail? Or having a few sardines? It would be pretty hypocritical - are prawns more deserving of life than the thousands of bugs that died when they made your desk, bed, wardrobe etc..? They're just bugs that live in the sea after all right?

I think eating *some* meat but not for every meal, being mostly pescatarian and trying to buy free-range etc.. wanting high animal welfare standards isn't too different ethically to going full vegan.