Why are you not vegan....

[Tony Edwards]

You don't have to poop in the toilet but in your garden either, just dig a hole, why do you have a toliet?
You don't need to drink coffee or tea either, why do you do it?
You don't need a lot of things either, why do you have them?

I don't get it.

Do any of those things involve a sentient being?

 

[Raikiri]

Do any of those things involve a sentient being?

Depends if you count plumbers as sentient I guess

 

[Devilman]

I don't want to live on a diet base on a guilt trip about my food, that seems really selective about what part i am feeling bad for.

Feeling guilt about killing animals are bad but wouldn't think twice about the plastics that comes from fossil fuel. Why put all your eggs in 1 basket? I don't get it? It doesn't get you any brownie points down the Church on Sundays with God you know. The ultimate goal surely is about saving this planet of ours then we can do it in many many ways rather than having to take B12 supplements for the rest of our life. Which brings me back to veganism and any of these fashionable lifestyle diets are a result of the affluent west…you won't find the guy working 80hrs a week in a warehouse barely put food on his table somewhere in the world to even consider doing this.

Veganism is targeted and advocated by the 0.1%, many many people don't have the choice to go on this diet. In order to save the planet, trying to convince people on this forum is not it or even veganism. You will never convince the majority to go meat free. What is more impactful would be push the idea or other more tasty stuff that isn't meat and the benefit of a balance diet. IF you can convince most people to drop their intake by 10%, that will have a significant more impact than 0.1% to be vegan. Using positive reinforcements rather than guilt.

The vegans have this tunnel vision that total meat free is the way, the only way, trying to moral guilt trip people to give up meat. When the better way and all they need to do is show people just lowering it by a little bit would achieve a BETTER result than they originally set out to do.

Absolutely this! I'm honestly amazed at how people want to put animals ahead of humans on the "hierarchy" - It's laughable.
Totally agree it makes far more sense to combat multiple sources of environmental damage by a "significant amount" than it does to try and stamp 1 thing out entirely - especially if that thing is so ingrained not just in society but in our very biology that we require it, lest we take supplements for the rest of our lives.
Just look at the move towards renewable energy.. Now there is something you could actually try and go "all out" on and make a real difference... but even if you only make 50% difference, that will probably still have significantly greater effect on the environment than everyone stopping eating meat (and by extension, the farming of livestock)

Although I would say the point about saving this planet of ours is a little off.. It's not really about saving the planet, she will still be here no matter what happens (at least for a few billion yrs fingers crossed), this is about saving ourselves. This is about not turning the planet into an ecosystem in which we cannot survive, be that through environmental disaster, or food chain collapse.

Youre the one in here shouting at vegans (or vegetarians).

I mean I wouldnt drink the cat one.

And yet it was those supporting the vegan "lifestyle" who are the ones spouting "murder" and trying to claim the "moral high ground" while sneering down at everyone else who still chooses to eat the diet we have literally evolved to eat. We are not a herbivore, we need certain things from meat which we simply cannot get in sufficient quantity from other sources (unless you like 50g of Shitake mushrooms daily ) as such a newborn human in this "vegan world" would be required to take supplements for their entire lives, from birth to death.
And not just him, but every single other person on the planet in this new Vegan Utopia - Are you really saying you would rather force 8billion people (and countless billions that follow them) to have to take medication from day 1, until the day they die, because that is what it ultimately amounts to.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Do any of those things involve a sentient being?

You are just proving my point, using guilt as an angle.

It really does get tiring trying to show you a better way to achieve what you want to do. I've explained it like 3 times in this thread.

 

[Vidar]

Veganism is the use of animal products so not just meat. It is bad to kill animals especially the mass production way lets be honest, lets not pretend its not bad for the animal.

What gives you the right to say that the entire ecosystem on this planet since the first single cell organism is bad? It's nature, plain and simple for billions of years. We're the top of the food chain, granted most of us don't kill our own food these days. That's not efficient for a population the size of ours, so it's done on an industrial scale. I agree that animal welfare is important and needs improving but the simple fact is. Lots of animals purely exist for the purposes of being eaten and this has been true since day 1. I have zero issues with killing animals for food and have done so. Trophy hunting however I don't agree with.

 

[Tony Edwards]

You are just proving my point, using guilt as an angle.

It really does get tiring trying to show you a better way to achieve what you want to do. I've explained it like 3 times in this thread.

Is it only guilt that stops you doing certain things? You havent explained anything.

 

[Devilman]

Do any of those things involve a sentient being?

While I fully admit my googling was not hugely extensive, I did come across this which I thought might be interesting and relevant (honestly not looking to confirm or rebuke any claims on sentience, just what I came across)

What is sentience?

Juan Carlos Marvizon, Ph.D., Adjunct Professor, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA I must confess that I initially disliked the word “sentience”. Maybe it was because for me it carried religio…

speakingofresearch.com

I'll just pop his "conclusion" in, you can read the rest for a more detailed view, but I feel it certainly bares relevance...

In conclusion, sentience seems to be a good word to designate our intuition that some animals possess intermediate forms of consciousness between human consciousness and the automatic behavior of the most simple animals. Animals with rudimentary nervous systems formed by less than a million neurons are likely automatons incapable of any form of feeling. They should be given the same moral status as plants. I cannot see any ethical difference between eating a carrot and eating a clam, since they are both not sentient. On the opposite end of the scale, mammals and birds should be considered sentient and capable of experiencing pain. However, my multilayer hypothesis of consciousness is speculative, so deriving a concept of sentience from it is premature at best. Strictly speaking, there is no scientific way to determine if a given animal is able to feel pain (as opposed to having nociception). Moreover, given that pain, distress and suffering are entirely different concepts, we can only say that an animal suffers based on our empathy and our intuition. For the time being, suffering is more a philosophical than a scientific concept. Therefore, sentience has no scientific basis so far and should be used with care when legislating animal welfare.

As I say, I was not looking specifically for an argument for or against, just an idea of what the current "view" of sentience is (and it's relevance to animals etc..) within academic fields.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Is it only guilt that stops you doing certain things? You havent explained anything.

I didn't feel guilty eating my burger today, or going to feel guilty making fried chicken tomorrow.

It isn't stopping me doing anything. I do things because i want to and within the law and I know right from wrong.

(this is where you come in and tell me eating animals is wrong...)

 

[Lysander]

I didn't feel guilty eating my burger today, or going to feel guilty making fried chicken tomorrow.

I don't know why you're bothering. He's only going to stop when he feels he's won or converted you.

 

[Tony Edwards]

(this is where you come in and tell me eating animals is wrong...)

No its not. Get over your self. You are the one that brought up guilt! I didnt mention it until you did and I asked if guilt is the only thing that stops you doing something.

I dont care if you eat meat. Im just telling you I dont.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I don't know why you're bothering. He's only going to stop when he feels he's won or converted you.

I feel like there is a trend between the vegans, like their lack of ability to understand people, or should I say...they don't understand that not everyone is the same as them, we are all different.

You think that being vegan, by the fact that they care about living things, they would appreciate the that people as we are alive too and each person is different and we all have our problems and desires. They can appreciate a cow but when it comes to an actual human being, can they appreciate that people are more complex and that not everyone is like them or can be like them and can follow the same diet? Due to so many reasons.

May be cutting out meat also means they lost their senses with regards to the consideration of other human beings ??? (which I know is not true) but I dunno, it seems to be a theme here!

 

[Raymond Lin]

No its not. Get over your self. You are the one that brought up guilt! I didnt mention it until you did and I asked if guilt is the only thing that stops you doing something.

You didn't mention it?

From my perspective I dont see how people are okay with with eating meat when they know about the killing or mistreating of animals. You do not have to eat meat I just dont get it.

 

[Tony Edwards]

You didn't mention it?

Erm no?

 

[Tony Edwards]

I don't know why you're bothering. He's only going to stop when he feels he's won or converted you.

I feel like there is a trend between the vegans, like their lack of ability to understand people, or should I say...they don't understand that not everyone is the same as them, we are all different.

You think that being vegan, by the fact that they care about living things, they would appreciate the that people as we are alive too and each person is different and we all have our problems and desires. They can appreciate a cow but when it comes to an actual human being, can they appreciate that people are more complex and that not everyone is like them or can be like them and can follow the same diet? Due to so many reasons.

May be cutting out meat also means they lost their senses with regards to the consideration of other human beings ??? (which I know is not true) but I dunno, it seems to be a theme here!

I dont understand either of your posts. I am not trying to convert you. I dont care if you eat meat or not.

 

[Lysander]

I dont understand either of your posts. I am not trying to convert you. I dont care if you eat meat or not.

 

[Tony Edwards]

...

I mean you believe in ghost and the supernatural so lets rein that in a bit uh?

 

[XeNoN89]

Militant vegans can go in the bin along with the race and gender extremists. they're all just the modern form of religious loons!

 

[Minusorange]

I dont understand either of your posts. I am not trying to convert you. I dont care if you eat meat or not.

They seem to think that discussing our reasons in a thread about giving up meat (or not) and countering false claims about things is forcing views onto them

It actually says a whole lot more about them really with their need to be so defensive in their desire to eat meat and perceive any general criticism whether aimed at them or not as an attack on their very being

It's really quite funny

 

[Efour]

Reads like an excercise in pronouns.

 

[DeanT77]

I always though the only thing a vegan could kill is a conversation but this thread seems to dispute that