Why are you not vegan....

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Caporegime
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There is my answer then - all absolutely solid facts and you have decided to declare them 'irrelevant' - so you're not going to engage.

It's a very sad time we live in, people choose to ignore facts when they hate what the facts say - we can't continue to debate because you have closed yourself off to reality.

You're also skewing the debate now - now your trying to say plant/meat diets are all with the only target being to live longest - that's irrelevant, ironically, you can die a million other ways before old age, and has nothing to do with the fact we are designed to eat plants - your point is in no way related to what I am saying.

You'll hate me even more for saying it, you don't need meat to live, fact, but you'll just disagree, why do people even bother debating any more, we live in a 'only my way is the right way' society and are closed off to others - even others with the backing of science.

And then to say slaughtering an innocent animal has nothing to do with morality is really quite a sick and disturbing comment - your character disturbs me.

As for your hypocritical point - yes you're absolutely right, I cannot live on this planet without impacting it or 'taking' from it, to sustain myself and what I need to do to exist in a society based on a monetary capitalist system.

Scary times.

PS: I have gone out of my way to not have ANY animal products in my home (thank you for making that point sir !!) - in simple terms I can only try my best - I am sure a man of your intelligence can understand trying ones best vs factual reality. Before I learned about the harm eating meat does, further, the animal abuse and environmental damage I did have such things - instead of throwing them out and buying new (wasteful), I kept items until they wore out - and any replacements I have are plant based only.

Clothing mostly cotton, wallet vegan leather, shoes are vegan cactus (who knew you can make leather from a cactus plant!), bags synthetic materials, car seat is cloth/synthetic - my office chair I made sure also had no animal components - camera strap is neoprene - which I must research now, as I honestly don't know if that's plant based.

I hope you found the latter half of my reply kind of useful rather than attacking.

EDIT: Neoprene isn't animal based, a polymer synthetic - good!
You are trying your best, I applaud you.

But why do you find the need to push your ideas onto others?

There are a few things in your post that stands out.

1 - You meantion that "only my way is the right way"

Do you know how you sound now? yes...you sound like the person you are describing.

2 - when you mention animal, why put the word innocent before it? Do you do that when a cat bring in a mouse? Why is my character disrubing? Because i eat meat?

This is EXACTLY, and I mean exactly why most people detest vegans (those that push their ideas onto others through "morals"), why all the memes exists. It's stuff like that, to judge people who eat meat as bad people because I ate a 2% tinned chicken soup last week (which was 5 months out of date by the way! I hate to waste food!), and I am "disturbing". It's not like I just went into a classroom with a semi automatic and let rip. Am I being dramatic? Are you being dramatic?

All the other good things that I do doesn't count, I am judged by the fact that I eat meat? No, I will not apologise for it. In fact, it is you who should be ashamed to even bring that up to people, it's a disgusting human trait. I would hope you don't do that in real life, I am sure you don't, because it really put people off.

Don't believe me, try go down the street, walk pass the butchers and shout at them what you just called me. Go to an ice cream place and shout at the girl working there.

Morals apply to more than not eating meat, it applies how you speak to other people. Eat your veg, be nice. As my mother say.
 
Soldato
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Is it your absolute opinion that man made polymers are better for the world than organic materials made from animals?

Because I'd argue that if we're talking bigger picture, animals that are treated well and killed humanely are the better choice than polluting the world with chemical extraction and the products it enables?

That's a whole other can of worms Wesimmo, animal farming is the 2nd biggest polluter, and env damager on Earth, bar none - rearing billions of huge, half ton animals everywhere causes massive damage, but alas, talking on here about progressive ideas is akin to talking to a brick wall! But that makes sense when you think about the general demographic on here - middle aged men, thus its unsurprising most of the views are 'traditional' so to speak, its important to remember social averages, for example you'd not get the responses on here as you would on a vegan forum ! lol (which usually consist of more than just middle aged males)
 
Soldato
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why, do the only things humans NEED in their diet, only exist in plants? Does that make said plants essential ? How come nothing in meat tissue exists that is essential to us ?
 
Soldato
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You are trying your best, I applaud you.

But why do you find the need to push your ideas onto others?

There are a few things in your post that stands out.

1 - You meantion that "only my way is the right way"

Do you know how you sound now? yes...you sound like the person you are describing.

2 - when you mention animal, why put the word innocent before it? Do you do that when a cat bring in a mouse? Why is my character disrubing? Because i eat meat?

This is EXACTLY, and I mean exactly why most people detest vegans (those that push their ideas onto others through "morals"), why all the memes exists. It's stuff like that, to judge people who eat meat as bad people because I ate a 2% tinned chicken soup last week (which was 5 months out of date by the way! I hate to waste food!), and I am "disturbing". It's not like I just went into a classroom with a semi automatic and let rip. Am I being dramatic? Are you being dramatic?

All the other good things that I do doesn't count, I am judged by the fact that I eat meat? No, I will not apologise for it. In fact, it is you who should be ashamed to even bring that up to people, it's a disgusting human trait. I would hope you don't do that in real life, I am sure you don't, because it really put people off.

Don't believe me, try go down the street, walk pass the butchers and shout at them what you just called me. Go to an ice cream place and shout at the girl working there.

Morals apply to more than not eating meat, it applies how you speak to other people. Eat your veg, be nice. As my mother say.

Why thank you sir.

Yeah I take your point about lecturing, however what is seen as 'standing on a soap box' lecturing can also be described as an easily done test, that anyone can do (almost like science) - go and stab or hurt an animal - its not pleasant, and its universally true.

Most meat eaters say they don't wish to cause pain - but in eating meat, they are, it's back to this 'its he reality of it I am afraid'

So what you perceive as 'my way is the only right way' what I mean is: surely you cannot disagree that causing a self aware animal horrendous pain is somehow ok? Maybe thats what you see as 'vegan elitism'

This pain can be listed in tons of ways, env damage, immediate pain of the victim, the list goes on. You can also have meat sellers that say 'its fineeeee I kill them humanely!', never actually seen a meal that was killed with general anaesthetic personally - I mean, if the meat industry must go on, the least they can do is put them to sleep first with true anaesthesia - but they won't.

Its also more than that, the bigger picture, you can eat a cow that lay on the finest bed for its entire life, but in supporting that 1%, still, the entire meat industry allows 99% of animals to be treated abhorrently.

It's not shameful to bring attention or information to people that largely have no clue - most people don't see the suffering that goes in to their meal - to leave them ignorant is an insult to their intelligence, its as if to say 'you can't handle the truth'

As a side note to the Japanese you admire - they are the worlds biggest abusers of the fishing industry (sea food does the most env damage by far, way more than even cattle), also their continued insistence on hunting rare whales is appalling.

Yeah defo be nice to people, but also be nice to all creatures.
 
Caporegime
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You seem obsessed with longevity - ok I'll adjust all my points to fit the mindset you're in.

(but dude, you're ignoring sooooo many things I have said, probably because you don't want to think about it)

Tons and tons of science exists that shows eating meat increases the risk of cancer hugely, as well as heart disease. Vegan diet studies do exist that show vegans have hugely reduced risk factors.

Just at least directly try to reply to one point - why, do the only things humans NEED in their diet, only exist in plants? Does that make said plants essential ? How come nothing in meat tissue exists that is essential to us ?

Meats just mostly protein, iv had 100 grams of that today in my plant diet.

If you want to live like the Japanese, you need to move there then if you want to grow supper old - its not just diet that helps them.

The longevity thing is 1 fact that summerise what you want to achieve, that is healthy living. You don't get sick and live long. You live long because you are healthy. (mostly speaking). You don't get cancer at 50 and live another 40 years, well, the odd person might, but statistically, not 120million. This is important because this number is not a single study of a minority, but a population living their lives as they would and want to.

I know there are lots of papers suggesting eating meat will kill you, but what are these papers saying? what quantity? what kind of meat? red, white? processed? There was one posted earlier, it says eating white meat does not show any increase in cancer. Processed meat is 18%, red meat 9%. But how often? and how large a meal it represents? Are these variables NOT important? You are a man of science. Do you not want to know? Surely you don't deal in absolutes?

As for the nutrients in plants question, I already said. Science is a moving target, your understanding is that right now you think you can get everything from plants. My argument is that..."moving target" and "japanese lives longest and they eat meat".

And ultimately....I want to eat meat. And leave my character out of it.
 
Soldato
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The very idea that CS (and other Vegans?) find the the majority of humans 'disturbing' because they eat meat is disturbing in itself. Really winning people over here /rolleyes.

What most people would find disturbing is the treatment of animals. They would want the least suffering. Some people just don't care. I still don't find it disturbing.

I find it more disturbing that we as humans seem more than happy to pollute the world, causing almost unrecoverable damage to the entire eco-system, and no, not from cows farting.
 
Soldato
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I find it more disturbing that we as humans seem more than happy to pollute the world, causing almost unrecoverable damage to the entire eco-system, and no, not from cows farting.

Same, 50% of the worlds damage comes from power generation, 25% comes from rearing animals - those farts add up I'm afraid, a 25% cut in global emissions is enormous, also trillions of tons of plants could feed people directly, ending world hunger.

Then, make all power come from solar or wind, and we're sorted!

Global shipping suprisingly only causes 2% global emissions - turns out shipping those bananas isn't THAT bad eh ?
 
Soldato
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Same, 50% of the worlds damage comes from power generation, 25% comes from rearing animals - those farts add up I'm afraid, a 25% cut in global emissions is enormous, also trillions of tons of plants could feed people directly, ending world hunger.

Then, make all power come from solar or wind, and we're sorted!

Global shipping suprisingly only causes 2% global emissions - turns out shipping those bananas isn't THAT bad eh ?
You need to update yourself, your headline grabbing figure are massively out of date - rice production actually releases significant amounts.of methane for example

 
Soldato
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Same, 50% of the worlds damage comes from power generation, 25% comes from rearing animals - those farts add up I'm afraid, a 25% cut in global emissions is enormous, also trillions of tons of plants could feed people directly, ending world hunger.

Then, make all power come from solar or wind, and we're sorted!

Global shipping suprisingly only causes 2% global emissions - turns out shipping those bananas isn't THAT bad eh ?
I see and what about the additional farming needs of billions of people? Additional fertilizers, chemicals, processing plants etc. It doesn't come without an impact.

Solar or wind? What happens in winter? Little sun, little wind. Diversify is what we need. Geo thermal; solar; wind; hydro; Fusion etc.

Electric car are also killing the planet with an out of control toxicity to anywhere we mine the resources we need. It isn't all just fluffy clouds and rainbows like you seem to be implying for veganism etc.

Lastly... everything is a cycle. If we create mass quanties of plant food, then those resources come out of the earth, the minerals etc in the ground get depleted. Self sustaining cycles are what are needed (or close to it). Energy isn't free.

Also, if we 'end world hunger' that means population boom, which means even more food needed......
 
Soldato
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Same, 50% of the worlds damage comes from power generation, 25% comes from rearing animals - those farts add up I'm afraid, a 25% cut in global emissions is enormous, also trillions of tons of plants could feed people directly, ending world hunger.

Then, make all power come from solar or wind, and we're sorted!

Global shipping suprisingly only causes 2% global emissions - turns out shipping those bananas isn't THAT bad eh ?

Can you define the 'damage' that power generation is doing please?
 
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