Why are you not vegan....

Ahleckz · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:01

Raymond Lin said:
It is necessary to kill them so i can eat it. I am not exactly going to eat it while it screams on my plate, i am NOT that cruel.

You are not my doctor so don't go down the "what is healthy" for me route, please?

But you don’t need to kill it. You can eat numerous other things without killing animals.
Again, I eat meat (not a lot but I do), I can still realise it’s wrong.

Raymond Lin · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:04

Ahleckz said:
But you don’t need to kill it. You can eat numerous other things without killing animals.
Again, I eat meat (not a lot but I do), I can still realise it’s wrong.

Treating animals badly is wrong, caging animals with no room to so much to take a step is wrong, killing and eating it, is not.

What's next? start forcing lions to be vegan in the wild and teach them some morals?

Vidar · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:09

Looks like more and more media outlets are getting on to the ridiculous nature of the "vegan diet"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61731187

Ahleckz · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:09

Raymond Lin said:
Treating animals badly is wrong, caging animals with no room to so much to take a step is wrong, killing and eating it, is not.

What's next? start forcing lions to be vegan in the wild and teach them some morals?

Why is killing something, that doesn’t want to die, out of choice, not wrong?

Though, I can tell by your second paragraph you aren’t genuine about having a discussion. A lion can’t go to Tesco and buy what it needs. It needs to eat that gazelle. You don’t. You can decide to do so, but you should realise that taking a life unnecessarily is wrong.
Taking a life can’t be ok, what gives anyone the right to kill anything else that doesn’t want to die?
I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m just saying you can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim the moral high ground when it’s evident you don’t have it.

It’s pretty simple, killing is wrong. You can say you don’t care, and that’s fine, but you can’t claim it isn’t wrong and it isn’t a corruption of morals.

subbytna · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:13

I like bacon and burgers

Raymond Lin · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:14

Ahleckz said:
Why is killing something, that doesn’t want to die, out of choice, not wrong?

Though, I can tell by your second paragraph you aren’t genuine about having a discussion. A lion can’t go to Tesco and buy what it needs. It needs to eat that gazelle. You don’t. You can decide to do so, but you should realise that taking a life unnecessarily is wrong.
Taking a life can’t be ok, what gives anyone the right to kill anything else that doesn’t want to die?
I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m just saying you can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim the moral high ground when it’s evident you don’t have it.

It’s pretty simple, killing is wrong. You can say you don’t care, and that’s fine, but you can’t claim it isn’t wrong and it isn’t a corruption of morals.

To put it simply, if I think is wrong to kill something for food, I would go vegan. I won't do it halfway. I already eat less meat than most, i don't have it every meal or even everyday.

I am not the kind of person to put this in the wrong aspect in my head for moral reasons and then still eat meat, even a little. That makes me a hypocrite. It's wrong to kill something for fun, but it's not for food.

There is no moral high ground just because of a single lifestyle choice, it is arrogant to think that you are if you think that way. Because morals is not 1 dimensional and not dependent on 1 choice, it is a collection of choices.

I don't claim the moral high ground btw, but I disagree that you have it because you eat no meat or less meat. Whilst in other aspects of your lifestyle could be worse than mine environmentally wise. That is just arrogant. No?

Steven Rimmington · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:19

I enjoy the benefits of eating fish and occasional red meat. Not talking about a McDonald's here, but there is nothing better than a steak with salad or Tuna pasta!

I'll stick to been less superior to someone who practices Veganism, one day I'll be just like them a vastly superior human race. One day, I can only dream. :cry:

Some stuff I read on a forum is very strange haha.

200sols · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:21

Ahleckz said:
It’s pretty simple, killing is wrong. You can say you don’t care, and that’s fine, but you can’t claim it isn’t wrong and it isn’t a corruption of morals.

Killing for food is perfectly normal.

Ahleckz · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:23

Raymond Lin said:
To put it simply, if I think is wrong to kill something for food, I would go vegan. I won't do it halfway. I already eat less meat than most, i don't have it every meal or even everyday.

I am not the kind of person to put this in the wrong aspect in my head for moral reasons and then still eat meat, even a little. That makes me a hypocrite. It's wrong to kill something for fun, but it's not for food.

There is no moral high ground just because of a single lifestyle choice, it is arrogant to think that you are if you think that way. Because morals is not 1 dimensional and not dependent on 1 choice, it is a collection of choices.

I don't claim the moral high ground btw, but I disagree that you have it because you eat no meat or less meat. Whilst in other aspects of your lifestyle could be worse than mine environmentally wise. That is just arrogant. No?

I guess we are coming at it at different positions. I think we can separate morality into issues, and I suppose you would have to add them up to see who the more ‘moral’ person is. I’m arguing that in this aspect, moon man has more morality than you and it’s ok for him to claim that. For him to say he’s a morally better person overall would be more dubious.
I would suggest that those who consider animal welfare and don’t kill probably live their life more morally in lots of other areas but that’s by the by for my argument.
You however are looking at a bigger picture, and claiming just because someone doesn’t kill unnecessarily that doesn’t make them morally better than anyone else. The trouble with your argument is that no one could be defined as moral as there’d always be something (probably) that removes some morality.

Ahleckz · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:23

200sols said:
Killing for food is perfectly normal.

Normality is not morality.

200sols · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:25

Ahleckz said:
Normality is not morality.

Killing for food is morally fine for me. Don't push your morals onto others.

Raymond Lin · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:27

Ahleckz said:
I guess we are coming at it at different positions. I think we can separate morality into issues, and I suppose you would have to add them up to see who the more ‘moral’ person is. I’m arguing that in this aspect, moon man has more morality than you and it’s ok for him to claim that. For him to say he’s a morally better person overall would be more dubious.
I would suggest that those who consider animal welfare and don’t kill probably live their life more morally in lots of other areas but that’s by the by for my argument.
You however are looking at a bigger picture, and claiming just because someone doesn’t kill unnecessarily that doesn’t make them morally better than anyone else. The trouble with your argument is that no one could be defined as moral as there’d always be something (probably) that removes some morality.

I am also being more realistic as well as the bigger picture. Is it remotely possible to make the planet, or even a single country like ours to be completely vegan or even vegetarian?

No chance, not even 1% chance.

However, it is possible to reduce our meat intake as a society, which THE BIGGER PICTURE will save more lives of animals, and less of them will die.

My way would have more impact and actually possible and sustainable.

Of course, I am looking at the bigger picture, I have explained this like 5 times now. Telling someone you are morally better is just rude, and would not work and would get up people’s backside and cause them to do the opposite. If you want to achieve what you want, that’s not the way to do it.

The vegans however do not understand this. I really cannot understand why.

Minusorange · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:29

200sols said:
Killing for food is morally fine for me. Don't push your morals onto others.

Would you kill it yourself if you didn't have the convenience of somebody else getting the blood on their hands instead ?

200sols · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:30

Minusorange said:
Would you kill it yourself if you didn't have the convenience of somebody else getting the blood on their hands instead ?

Yep and I do regularly, mainly fish.

Devilman · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:35

Minusorange said:
Would you kill it yourself if you didn't have the convenience of somebody else getting the blood on their hands instead ?

If we didn't have industrialized, large scale farming you can absolutely bet they would, so would you too. Why? Because that's what we would have been brought up doing for generations. We would have continued as Hunters, as such *everyone* would be totally used to the idea and the mechanics of killing an animal and then processing it's body for food and useful materials.
Modern large scale agricultural farming and global shipping / availability is what has "allowed" the notion of a Vegan diet at all, tbh.

bigmike20vt · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:41

krooton said:
You can't spell evangelical without vegan.

i know you are joking but this is an interesting point........ Vegans are essentially claiming Jesus was immoral. Now, dont get me wrong, I am fine with that, but when he told that fella to recast his nets and he filled em with fish, there must have been a lot of very cheesed off fish - if we are to assume any truth in religious texts and not think it is a load of made up horse hockey.

I saw something the other month which made me cringe. people mentioned about whether lions are unethical for eating meat, and the argument was no because they need meat.... (I agree). but where do we stand with dogs? PErsonally i think it is wrong to force veganism on dogs but ................ https://omni.pet/

it is all a sliding scale, I guess vegans feel the same way about a person eating even "ethically" sourced meat as I do about, say people who eat shark fin soup or buying ivory trinkets or medicines........ so I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

I am fine with people eating meat, but i am not fine with killing an animal for a tiny percentage of said animal, and I am definitely not fine with throwing said mutilated animal back into the sea to die a slow and presumably terrible death.

I do find the chat interesting tho.

Ahleckz · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:42

Raymond Lin said:
I am also being more realistic as well as the bigger picture. Is it remotely possible to make the planet, or even a single country like ours to be completely vegan or even vegetarian?

No chance, not even 1% chance.

However, it is possible to reduce our meat intake as a society, which THE BIGGER PICTURE will save more lives of animals, and less of them will die.

My way would have more impact and actually possible and sustainable.

Of course, I am looking at the bigger picture, I have explained this like 5 times now. Telling something you are morally better is just rude, and would not work and would get up people’s backside and cause them to do the opposite. If you want to achieve what you want, that’s not the way to do it.

The vegans however do not understand this. I really cannot understand why.

We aren’t going to get anywhere.
It’s without doubt that the person who doesn’t eat meat is morally better, in that aspect, is better than the one who does.
You can continue to deny that for reasons, but you’re wrong. Killing an animal that wants to live is wrong. It can’t not be. You can ignore that, and decide your choice is more important but it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s morally wrong.
But, you seem to think it’s fine to kill so we aren’t going to agree.

200sols · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:45

bigmike20vt said:
but where do we stand with dogs?

Dogs need meat. Mine are fed a raw diet. Since we are on morals it is morally wrong to feed a dog a vegan diet.

Ahleckz said:
You can ignore that, and decide your choice is more important but it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s morally wrong.

No it isnt morally wrong. That is just your opinion.

Minusorange · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:45

200sols said:
Yep and I do regularly, mainly fish.

I wasn't judging by the way I was just curious, I am the same with regards sea food

Devilman said:
so would you too

See above

Bassmansam · 9 Jun 2022 at 16:48

If killing animals is wrong why do animals kill and eat other animals in nature?