Why are you not vegan....

[Raymond Lin]

We aren’t going to get anywhere.
It’s without doubt that the person who doesn’t eat meat is morally better, in that aspect, is better than the one who does.
You can continue to deny that for reasons, but you’re wrong. Killing an animal that wants to live is wrong. It can’t not be. You can ignore that, and decide your choice is more important but it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s morally wrong.
But, you seem to think it’s fine to kill so we aren’t going to agree.

Your way would mean more animals will die, probably increases as world population increases, and you never going to get your goal.

 

[Devilman]

We aren’t going to get anywhere.
It’s without doubt that the person who doesn’t eat meat is morally better, in that aspect, is better than the one who does.
You can continue to deny that for reasons, but you’re wrong. Killing an animal that wants to live is wrong. It can’t not be. You can ignore that, and decide your choice is more important but it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s morally wrong.
But, you seem to think it’s fine to kill so we aren’t going to agree.

"Wants to live" is a VERY big claim to make and cutting it awfully close to anthropomorphising animals as little defenseless children.

It's still barely known for certain whether animals truly experience "pain" and "suffering" the way we do, or if it's just an extension of nociception (The nervous systems ability to sense extremes of heat / cold and damage etc..) - It may well be only truly possible by conscious, self-ware creatures.

As such, the notion that all living creatures inherently "want" to live is a HUGE claim to make with prettymuch 0 evidence to prove it. "Want" and "Desire" are conscious constructs.

 

[bigmike20vt]

We aren’t going to get anywhere.
It’s without doubt that the person who doesn’t eat meat is morally better, in that aspect, is better than the one who does.
You can continue to deny that for reasons, but you’re wrong. Killing an animal that wants to live is wrong. It can’t not be. You can ignore that, and decide your choice is more important but it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s morally wrong.
But, you seem to think it’s fine to kill so we aren’t going to agree.

if you are going to get all judgy about it tho (not the literal you) I take it such a person would never drive anywhere but would always walk, or maybe cycle slowly...... because in summer the amount of roadkill on the front of my car in 1 long journey is likely more than the number of animals i have had killed for food in an entire year. IF we are going to assume that all animals are equal and have a right to life, and i can see logic to that argument, then arguing the death of 1 cow if you kill 100 animals on the front of your car is a bit of a drop in the bucket is it not?

there are such people...... they walk around with brushes and generally i killed lots of them playing Grand Theft Auto 1 back in the day

 

[200sols]

I wasn't judging by the way I was just curious, I am the same with regards sea food

I mean there aren't many big animals to go and kill in the UK, its not like we hunt cows or pigs or sheep they are purely bred for a purpose. But yeah I enjoy fishing and BTW the mackerel are in on the South Coast. I caught some last week and cooked and ate them within 30 mins of catching, simply delicious. I dont buy mackerel in a supermarket or fishmongers as it really does start to spoil soon after being killed and the degradation in quality is quite something if you wait a day or more before eating.

 

[Devilman]

... because in summer the amount of roadkill on the front of my car in 1 long journey is likely more than the number of animals i have kills for food in an entire year....

But what do you do with all their bicycles?

 

[bigmike20vt]

It's still barely known for certain whether animals truly experience "pain" and "suffering" the way we do, or if it's just an extension of nociception (The nervous systems ability to sense extremes of heat / cold and damage etc..) - It may well be only truly possible by conscious, self-ware creatures.

As such, the notion that all living creatures inherently "want" to live is a HUGE claim to make with prettymuch 0 evidence to prove it. "Want" and "Desire" are conscious constructs.

oooof! whilst i am in the red camp on this topic in general, I think this is a weak argument. I dont think it is a stretch to say that any mammal has enough about it to want to live. I know similar arguments are used for people who claim to be a vegetarian but eat fish, but i dont buy that then even personally. A will to live is kind of a core concept of most animals imo, certainly any with anything whic hcould be considered a brain or any neverous system.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Somewhere on the internet is a bunch of Fruitarian telling a bunch of vegans that they are morally corrupt.

 

[Devilman]

oooof! whilst i am in the red camp on this, I think this is a weak argument. I dont think it is a stretch to say that any mammal has enough about it to want to live. I know similar arguments are used for people who claim to be a vegetarian but eat fish, but i dont buy that then even personally. A will to live is kind of a core concept of most animals imo, certainly any with anything whic hcould be considered a brain or any neverous system.

A few pages back I posted a link to an interesting article on the take of consciousness, sentience etc.. by a prof from ACLU I think it was.. Biology / Medical prof I seem to recall.

It's well worth a read and goes quite a way into the subject of animal welfare etc.. also. The conclusion seem(s) to be that the topic of "Pain" and "Suffering" vs Nociception is still very much a grey area and really should *not* be used to base animal welfare decisions on. At least not solely in isolation.

Edit :- Also no, I don't think it's a weak argument tbh, if science itself is still very much undecided if the capability to detect events (nociception) is anything remotely similar to our own experience of pain and / or suffering. - It is worth noting also that "pain" and "suffering" are 2 very different things, the latter being much more a subjective thing from the individuals point of view / beliefs / religion*

*delete as appropriate

 

[bigmike20vt]

But yeah I enjoy fishing and BTW the mackerel are in on the South Coast. I caught some last week and cooked and ate them within 30 mins of catching, simply delicious. I dont buy mackerel in a supermarket or fishmongers as it really does start to spoil soon after being killed and the degradation in quality is quite something if you wait a day or more before eating.

many years ago I caught the biggest rod caught Cod of the british isles up to that point that year. I would have won a large amount of monies worth in sea fishing gear however that same week someone beat the uk record sea bass... i was gutted. (I came 2nd)

38lbs 4oz. I had no idea what the hell to do with it, it was massive so gave it to the fish mongers. I did get a colour spread in the angling times (edit i think it was anglers mail) however..... many years later i went on a date with a girl.... she was a vegi and went bonkers when she saw the pic on my wall at home. We didnt have a 2nd date. but i digress.

 

[Vidar]

I've made it abundantly clear that I do not agree with Veganism in anyway shape or form. But, why is the question why are you not vegan? Shouldn't it be Why do you eat the way you do? If there was a dietary movement focused on peoples health and saving the planet, wouldn't it surely be more focused on the reduction of hyper processed foods, the proper support and subsidizing of farmers of all varieties and the banning of dangerous pesticides etc? There's something very wrong with blaming the meat industry for global warming, there's less animals now than during the last ice age.

Instead would it not be better for the environment on a global scale if there was a clear, concise genuine push to Electric and Hydrogen vehicles even just across the UK? I know they're steadily gaining traction but I mean what if the government of the day heavily invested in the electrification of Britain's roads and motorways extending the range of EV vehicles dramatically. Imagine the reduction in global Co2 levels if in the next 5 years the entire country went electric?

Imagine the use of sugar became restricted, all the chemicals and unnatural crap taken out of our food? If not outright banned then made far more expensive than the wholefood alternatives. Imagine the health benefits to that and the reduced funding the NHS would need etc?

Anyway all that said, as someone who eats strictly carnivore. You're never going to convince me to give up meat and fat when eating this way I see my health improve every single day. I feel the best I've ever felt. It's only on the days when I eat something not Carnivore that I feel like absolute crap.

 

[Devilman]

many years ago I caught the biggest rod caught Cod of the british isles up to that point that year. I would have won a large amount of monies worth in sea fishing gear however that same week someone beat the uk record sea bass... i was gutted. (I came 2nd)

38lbs 4oz. I had no idea what the hell to do with it, it was massive so gave it to the fish mongers. I did get a colour spread in the angling times however..... many years later i went on a date with a girl.... she was a vegi and went bonkers when she saw the pic on my wall at home. We didnt have a 2nd date. but i digress.

Not as gutted as the Cod once it got to the fish mongers!

 

[200sols]

many years ago I caught the biggest rod caught Cod of the british isles up to that point that year. I would have won a large amount of money in sea fishing gear however that same week someone beat the uk record sea bass... i was gutted. (I came 2nd)

38lbs 4oz. I had no idea what the hell to do with it, it was massive so gave it to the fish mongers. I did get a colour spread in the angling times however..... many years later i went on a date with a girl.... she was a vegi and went bonkers when she saw the pic on my wall at home. We didnt have a 2nd date. but i digress.

Lucky to catch a 5lber these days.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Lucky to catch a 5lber these days.

I know.... when i was a kid (not so long ago) you would see mackeral, 100s of them, swimming up and down the coast around North wales, you literally could not get your rod in quick enough and would pull out 8 at a time.

i have not seen such a thing in over 20 years (mind you have not been sea fishing for 15 years... i keep meaning to go again),. back then catching your mackeral on a day sea fishing trip was done in 30 mins to basically get a few for the fying pan and then the rest for bait for your bigger fish... since then, catching a few mackeral may be all you manage in an entire day of fishing.

it is sad, i doubt it will ever recover properly. (and before anyone suggests i am part of the problem, i really dont think so. A few rod caught fish will make zero difference.

 

[Johno please?]

You were talking about what your preferences:

But your preferences would remove all of the animals you refer to from existence. There wouldn't be any animals raised for meat. Or even for eggs or milk. If there wasn't any animal farming there would only be wild animals and pets. So you are talking about wild animals. And the point about carrion still stands. Humans aren't adapted to eating carrion. But it would be a moot point anyway because few humans ever find carrion. In almost all cases other processes consume the corpse. The predator that killed that animal. Scavenging animals, who are much more likely to find it than humans are. Insects. Bacteria. Mould.

I'm assuming you wouldn't count roadkill because that's not "lived their full life term and died of natural causes". It's also relatively rare.

I'm also assuming that, for some reason, you count an animal being killed by a human as unnatural but an animal killed by any animal other than humans natural.

That is a strong possibility yes because like i said, we only breed them for meat they don't exist in nature.

I consider it unnecessary, animals do kill other animals im aware thanks.

Why are you not Vegan? Probably because you Vegans are like flat earthers. Pushing your narrative any chance you can. No reasoning, EVEN if non vegans don't say anything negative towards veganism.
this from first hand experience whilst working in Retail and hospitality.

In all seriousness I like meat, end of.

What narrative is that, that we don't like animals being abused and killed? I've reasoned my arguments throughout this entire thread, the only argument against veganism is "i don't care, i like meat" I cant really say anything in response to that.

But we've had 60 pages of whataboutery, I've now got people asking me if I drink coffee (i dont if you're interested) as if that's somehow relevant to a pig being forced into a gas chamber.

Its hard to change your mind though it took me years, most of us are brought up eating meat and dairy. Meat for protein, milk for calcium, and certainly don't ask how its all made. One, because you might not like the answer and two because there's a lot of people looking to lose an awful lot money.

 

[cheesefest]

I rather have quality over quantity with meat any time. What's this thing with Richmond sausages? They taste bloody awful, have the lowest % to be called a pork sausage - 42%. Yet when they on offer at work, customers buy them by the ton. Give me a sausage with at least twice the meat content. Plus the meat £/kg is cheaper in a supermarket premium or butchers' sausage than Richmond.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I rather have quality over quantity with meat any time. What's this thing with Richmond sausages? They taste bloody awful, have the lowest % to be called a pork sausage - 42%. Yet when they on offer at work, customers buy them by the ton. Give me a sausage with at least twice the meat content. Plus the meat £/kg is cheaper in a supermarket premium or butchers' sausage than Richmond.

Whilst i know what you mean, and i too enjoy decent bangers................. i also have a bit of a guilty pleasure of cheapo richmonds and the like.

totally different beast and scratch a different itch. maybe they remind me of my childhood when we only ever had cheap ones (probably filled with hoof, hair and spinal cord ) but what can i say...............................

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I’m curious, for all the vegans here how much exercise do you do on a weekly basis and what type of exercise (if your job involves a lot of physical movement feel free to list)?
For those that do a lot of exercise Do you have to heavily supplement the protein your missing out on?

I ask because I basically crave meat after a workout due to the protein.

 

[Vern1961]

The opening few responses pretty much summed it up for me - because I like the taste of meat (and fish), it's nutritious and I am not interested in vegetable etc. alternatives. Proud to be an omnivore. That said, have cut down the amount of red meat I eat, these days more chicken and fish. Even if I was to decide to give up meat, I would refuse to abandon non lethal animal products, specifically milk, butter, cheese, yoghurt, eggs etc. In fact we have recently switched to using butter on our bread again rather than these pseudo buttery spreads which mostly consist of vegetable or grain oils dyed and flavoured to vaguely resemble butter.

Besides if the vegetarians/vegans got their way, what do they think is going to happen to the livestock/poultry stocks around the world? Farmers are going to smile benignly and allow them to live out their lives or find homes at petting zoos for them all? I think not. There would be wholesale slaughter, even possibly extinction of animals which have existed tens of thousands of years alongside humans.

 

[Cantankerous]

Would the answer not be that we cull the human population, adhere to population control, stop eating any meat or providing meat to animals (pets / zoos) and stop the use of non-renewable materials (oil, diamonds etc.)? Society as we know it would collapse and we'd end up back in the hunter gather times.

I think there was a movie or two like this...

Inhumane treatment should stop but I disagree that killing for food and using all the parts of the animal is inhumane. As others have said, a balanced diet for most people would show strong benefits. There are documented cases where going onto meat only diets have fixed problems for people; I expect they would be the minority. However should we let them suffer over animals?

 

[moon man]

Bolt gun in the head ,how do you like that ? says the slaughterhouse worker ,cow struggles for breath throughout ,this is what you support


You are trying to make a point but this is still a family friendly forum and the video can't be posted. Instead tell people what to google. - Montymint