Why are you not vegan....

[Devilman]

Late night post and couldn't cover everything, but besides the cruelty and the conditions I don't want these animals to be killed on my behalf.

Fair point on the fruit picking, I'm against the exploitation of people too, will investigate further how I can be better in this area.

But fundamentally people have the freedom to leave, get a different job, work on a different farm, go pick fruit in another country where conditions are better. They can also call the police, write to the local MP, post photos on social media, complain directly to the owners etc.

If you are not eating them, nor using any products that come from them or their carcass, then they would be being killed on your behalf anyway, would they?

Also, many times NO these people do not have the freedom to leave, or to get a different job, or work on a different farm. Many are brought over here by workmasters (gangmasters) who stuff them 5+ to a room and pretty much dictate their pay, their hours, their terms and sadly those people do not have the freedom or the option to call the police, or write to an MP.
I am 100% against this kind of behavior of exploitation, but at no point would I be saying to others "you shouldn't eat fruit / veg because of the exploitation / cruelty of the workers", nor would I berate them or equate them to a Slave-gang driver in the way that some have attempted to portray meat eaters as "murders" and people whom are complicit with animal abuse and morally bereft.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

As an impulse buy, I bought a pack of sweet chilli coated pork scratchings from a service station yesterday. Mmmmmm, they're so tasty.

But I do feel a twang of guilt with every one I eat. Gave the hairy one to the dog. I think the picture of a pig on the box doesn't help.

 

[ScotchHop]

As an impulse buy, I bought a pack of sweet chilli coated pork scratchings from a service station yesterday. Mmmmmm, they're so tasty.

But I do feel a twang of guilt with every one I eat. Gave the hairy one to the dog. I think the picture of a pig on the box doesn't help.

Did you enjoy them though, and is your waistline worse off for it?

 

[montymint]

Keep it on topic peeps

 

[Rroff]

As an impulse buy, I bought a pack of sweet chilli coated pork scratchings from a service station yesterday. Mmmmmm, they're so tasty.

But I do feel a twang of guilt with every one I eat. Gave the hairy one to the dog. I think the picture of a pig on the box doesn't help.

I'm definitely not giving up meat until there is a convincing substitute for cold gammon between a couple of pieces of bread.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm definitely not giving up meat until there is a convincing substitute for cold gammon between a couple of pieces of bread.

what about a toast sandwich?

 

[adam cool dude]

As an impulse buy, I bought a pack of sweet chilli coated pork scratchings from a service station yesterday. Mmmmmm, they're so tasty.

But I do feel a twang of guilt with every one I eat. Gave the hairy one to the dog. I think the picture of a pig on the box doesn't help.

The missus buys from the butchers every now and again. I shared a bag with the dog and cat this morning whilst drinking a cup of tea in the garden

 

[moon man]

I made that for the missus last night. Batter mix was 1:1 ice cold water:flour. Ground up a nori sheet, and a tablespoon of caper water. Was good!

Cheer I really need to up my game with cooking ,just need some oil now and will give it a bash.
Had some wicked variety no ham slices on knock down the other day from Tesco ,maybe not the most healthy but with salad and masses of wholegrain mustard and vegan mayo made a hell of a sandwich tbh

Edit /last night's tea was just thrown together but nice .frozen peppers tomatoes ,peas soya protein , random veg mix ,made into a curry

 

[Ahleckz]

Cheer I really need to up my game with cooking ,just need some oil now and will give it a bash.
Had some wicked variety no ham slices on knock down the other day from Tesco ,maybe not the most healthy but with salad and masses of wholegrain mustard and vegan mayo made a hell of a sandwich tbh

Edit /last night's tea was just thrown together but nice .frozen peppers tomatoes ,peas soya protein , random veg mix ,made into a curry

Get this book. The marketing is pants but their recipes are quickly, easy, tasty and vegan. It’ll quickly give you great dinners.
You can also get pretty much all the ingredients from a normal supermarket. Lots of vegan cookbooks have very obscure stuff or stuff that only a Notting Hill Waitrose Local would stock, not the Morrisons in the east end of Glasgow!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Speedy-BOS...&dplnkId=a7d3e560-e4d6-47cb-b6f1-62d59d55165c

 

[katie279]

I went veggie over a year ago and haven't regretted it. Not gone all the way vegan but may try in the future. I don't preach at others, I didn't make this change until 41 so why should I expect everyone else to change just because I have now?

It was a personal thing for me, the main driver being the cruelty and conditions the animals live in. I get this isn't all places but once you see the mega farms like in the US and the fact a pig has no space and can't even turn around... That's no life. There are thousands of videos showing the poor conditions, I don't want to be a part of that.

Secondly impact on the environment generally, less proven science I'm sure, and there are arguements about land being cleared for more veg crops which is bad but lesser of two evils maybe... I try and buy local and organic where I can.

Finally the disgusting state of most meat sold.in supermarkets.

Meat and fish is pumped full of all sorts of chemicals, including dyes, for example smoked salmon only looks like you think it should as it has been coloured, the same happens with chicken. I'm not a health freak or anything but the state of £3 packs of chicken breast in Morrisons... I'd rather go without.

I saw a guy on TV a while back, was a morning TV bit and they were going on at him for being vegan and his kids being vegan too and not giving them choice etc. He had a good response, said let's take your kids to an abattoir and then see if they still want to eat meat.

Some really nice points here, I think this gets to the nub of the various issues - where I suspect both sides are pretty darn close if they can open their minds a little:
- Do you agree that animal care in farming can and should improve? - I suspect pretty much 100% of people will agree with this

- Do you agree that care for people in farming should improve? (ie whether picking vegetables or rearing animals) - I suspect 100% will agree

- Do you agree that there should be a greater focus on food quality vs quantity/price? Think almost all would agree here - esp when you see the data, you're quite right on meat in supermarkets, but also might not be aware of fruit/veg is just as bad - up to 40 times less nutrients that 70 years ago - 50% less iron, around 25% less protein etc. Plus the chemicals point that you mention on meat also applies to veg and fruit.

When you put these points together they make a huge leap forward that would transform the UK without any fundamental change required other than mindset - good post, enjoyed your thoughts!

 

[KraniX]

Some really nice points here, I think this gets to the nub of the various issues - where I suspect both sides are pretty darn close if they can open their minds a little:
- Do you agree that animal care in farming can and should improve? - I suspect pretty much 100% of people will agree with this

- Do you agree that care for people in farming should improve? (ie whether picking vegetables or rearing animals) - I suspect 100% will agree

- Do you agree that there should be a greater focus on food quality vs quantity/price? Think almost all would agree here - esp when you see the data, you're quite right on meat in supermarkets, but also might not be aware of fruit/veg is just as bad - up to 40 times less nutrients that 70 years ago - 50% less iron, around 25% less protein etc. Plus the chemicals point that you mention on meat also applies to veg and fruit.

When you put these points together they make a huge leap forward that would transform the UK without any fundamental change required other than mindset - good post, enjoyed your thoughts!

Good points too, shame that this coversation has to be so agressive and polarising for some.

It's like talking about politics or religion, pretty much almost impossible to change someone's mind/opinion and degenerates into name calling or saying everything is woke.

On the chemical issue for fruit and veg I do try and buy a lot of organic stuff which is supposed to be free of pesticides etc. but no guarantees.

You have to trust the suppliers as we're so far removed from the process usually, same issue for meat, we know a lot of dodgy stuff goes on, look at the horse meat scandal a few years back.

Really intrigued about the falling nutritional quality, not heard that was a thing, here's a BBC article for anyone else interested summarising the findings. Is bit old so will look for some newer resources too.

How modern food can regain its nutrients

There are concerns that in our rush to grow food on ever bigger scales, we have inadvertently caused its nutritional content to wane. What can be done to reverse that?

www.bbc.com

I still eat eggs, cheese and drink milk so can't preach as I said, but always buy free range for example but it still pains me. And there is no free range at the moment with the outbreak I gather.

I have been thinking about this a lot more of late. I've put off removing them from my diet since a. they are really nice and b. I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to have for dinner! Will do some more research and see about moving to a more vegan diet bit by bit.

 

[KraniX]

If you are not eating them, nor using any products that come from them or their carcass, then they would be being killed on your behalf anyway, would they?

Also, many times NO these people do not have the freedom to leave, or to get a different job, or work on a different farm. Many are brought over here by workmasters (gangmasters) who stuff them 5+ to a room and pretty much dictate their pay, their hours, their terms and sadly those people do not have the freedom or the option to call the police, or write to an MP.
I am 100% against this kind of behavior of exploitation, but at no point would I be saying to others "you shouldn't eat fruit / veg because of the exploitation / cruelty of the workers", nor would I berate them or equate them to a Slave-gang driver in the way that some have attempted to portray meat eaters as "murders" and people whom are complicit with animal abuse and morally bereft.

I'm not sure in your first paragraph if you're agreeing with me or not, I don't think I'm reading it right, can you clarify please?

In no way am I saying the gangmasters you're talking about don't exist, but I would question how much produce is gathered in this way versus the overall total. Even if small that doesn't stop it being an issue obv.

In the UK and western EU I can't imagine this is the majority, if you have some sources or articles on this I'd be keen to read them but will have a look myself.

I would guess the suffering of animals is by many orders of magnitude greater than people picking fruit against their will. 24 million chickens are killed in the US, every day. And the conditions for the farms I've seen are horrific.

I get the point you are making re. telling people not to eat fruit and veg, it's hard to argue with the logic, why is it okay for one but not the other?

I don't think I have a good response, all I can think of is a. without meat AND fruit and veg I'm gonna have a tough time staying alive and b. I still feel there is an element of choice for humans which animals don't have.

 

[katie279]

Good points too, shame that this coversation has to be so agressive and polarising for some.

It's like talking about politics or religion, pretty much almost impossible to change someone's mind/opinion and degenerates into name calling or saying everything is woke.

On the chemical issue for fruit and veg I do try and buy a lot of organic stuff which is supposed to be free of pesticides etc. but no guarantees.

You have to trust the suppliers as we're so far removed from the process usually, same issue for meat, we know a lot of dodgy stuff goes on, look at the horse meat scandal a few years back.

Really intrigued about the falling nutritional quality, not heard that was a thing, here's a BBC article for anyone else interested summarising the findings. Is bit old so will look for some newer resources too.

How modern food can regain its nutrients

There are concerns that in our rush to grow food on ever bigger scales, we have inadvertently caused its nutritional content to wane. What can be done to reverse that?

www.bbc.com

I still eat eggs, cheese and drink milk so can't preach as I said, but always buy free range for example but it still pains me. And there is no free range at the moment with the outbreak I gather.

I have been thinking about this a lot more of late. I've put off removing them from my diet since a. they are really nice and b. I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to have for dinner! Will do some more research and see about moving to a more vegan diet bit by bit.

Agree re debate - think more rationalism/fact based discussion and less emotion would go a long way. As I've tried to move things to, there's some fascinating stuff here when you really start to think about it that has been blowing neuroscientists brains in recent years. The concept of 'pain' is a huge area and it's far harder than people twig at a layman's level - in very short terms, couple of nobel prize winners realised that this is more about memory, than sensory network (ie it's not actually about what you experience, but what you remember). It's obvious when you think about it - but really changes your view on things.

Eggs, cheese and milk are actually brilliant starting points for discussions like this - ie well kept animals that are bred for eggs or milk are much happier (neuroscientifically) than in the wild (where their fear responses are much higher and chance of suffering much greater) - so a great place to start discussion about what we agree. I think even the most ideological/emotionally-bent vegan or meat eater would struggle to have a huge problem with a perfectly happy family hen having eggs collected for food. From here you can extend into how well we should treat them, what we should feed. Then what happens when the hen dies of old age, is there a fundamental problem with eating them (vs letting worms eat them) and so on and so on. There's also the interesting question of meat-eating animals - loads of good science on this where high-tier intellect predators aren't 'happy' without being able to kill other animals (think orcas, big cats, bears, birds of prey, wolves etc) and many of them like to 'play' with their prey and lead exhausting and terrifying ordeals for them (at least from an anthropomorphological perspective) - so do we 'allow' that when we could stop it. And so on and so on.

Re plant nutrients - yes, increasing amounts on this:

National Geographic

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.

www.nationalgeographic.co.uk

Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious?

Because of soil depletion, crops grown decades ago were much richer in vitamins and minerals than the varieties most of us get today

www.scientificamerican.com

Excellent accessible book by James Wong called Grow for Flavour which covers a lot of interesting stats on this at the start, but naturally also talks about why you should grow your own!
In short it's identical to the animal point - ie they've been grown for speed, size not nutrition or flavour - so, growing or buying heirloom varieties makes a huge difference (organic alone reduces chemicals etc, but doesn't necessarily make them healthier as a result).

I think overall there's really strong arguments for a) eating food as locally as possible b) eating less, but paying more for quality c) caring more about the animals and people in food chain (and a & b help hugely towards c)

Beyond that, it starts becoming a bit more opinion over science - ie we don't NEED to eat as much meat as we do - ie there's no health impact for most if we ate a quarter of the amount of meat, but we do NEED to eat some meat for full-range health benefits.

Anyway, good discussion and well worth a read of the book...

 

[moon man]

Some of my fruit and veg comes from the greenhouse and fruit tree area (orchard sounds precocious no ?) I also don't use any pesticides whatsoever ,have a slug deterrent that they dislike.
I remember a thread about possible banning of a certain pesticide followed by posts of how they don't care and will stock up. Exposure to glyphosate-based pesticides has been linked to certain types of cancer as well as to adverse effects on human development and hormonal systems.
Moon man drifts off topic but my lawn gets dandelions they do there job and disappear.........

 

[katie279]

Heheheh! Well I've done the same with smallish plot (1/3 acre garden) - but have 12m x 4m greenhouse with loads of stuff growing each year, 7 apples, 2 pears, 2 cherries, 2 fig, two rhubarb, asparagus beds and 4 x 8ft x 4ft beds for annual veg.

Most of above is perennial, so once established, very little maintenance and the greenhouse is lovely and warm in even winter - bikini in December is great fun...

Agree re pesticides - just not needed unless you're pursuing profit over quality. Beer slug traps solve instantly or you can get a hen and they'll be in paradise for life...! (although above question on eggs becomes interesting!)

 

[Tony Edwards]

Surely the issue to be addressed here is the poor treatment of animals in such countries, not to stop eating meat?

You are a genius! I wonder why no one has thought of that before.

UK government puts animal welfare policies on pause

Delayed legislation includes ban on trophy hunting imports and stricter sentences for puppy thieves

www.theguardian.com

Some of the government’s most prized new animal welfare policies are being put on pause in what supporters see as a sneaky attempt to ditch the “woke” measures altogether.

Senior sources in the Conservative party have confirmed to the Guardian that a series of policies including a ban on trophy hunting imports, stricter sentences for puppy thieves and a ban on live exports of livestock have been put on pause after a campaign led by Mark Spencer, the chief whip.


The minister responsible for the policies, Zac Goldsmith, is understood to have heard the news just before taking off on a flight to Ecuador.

Spencer, who is a farmer, is understood to be less than keen on the animal-friendly policies touted by Boris Johnson and his influential friends including his wife, Carrie, and Lord Goldsmith.


Others within the party, in rural constituencies, have privately complained that the animal welfare policies have been campaigned for by people who live in cities, and that it has made them unpopular with landowning, shooting donors and voters.

Many backbenchers hope the next Tory leader is unlikely to continue with the legislation as it is unpopular with influential figures in the party.

Caring about animals is 'woke' what ever next?

 

[moon man]

Heheheh! Well I've done the same with smallish plot (1/3 acre garden) - but have 12m x 4m greenhouse with loads of stuff growing each year, 7 apples, 2 pears, 2 cherries, 2 fig, two rhubarb, asparagus beds and 4 x 8ft x 4ft beds for annual veg.

Most of above is perennial, so once established, very little maintenance and the greenhouse is lovely and warm in even winter - bikini in December is great fun...

Agree re pesticides - just not needed unless you're pursuing profit over quality. Beer slug traps solve instantly or you can get a hen and they'll be in paradise for life...! (although above question on eggs becomes interesting!)

Using this to repel the slugs ,I also re-home but I hear they can cover quite a distance to get back where they came from

 

[katie279]

Ah, I use things like these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Snail-Simple-Traps-Chemicals-Garden/dp/B01MQER7GT/ref=asc_df_B01MQER7GT/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309874391644&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4307405639960834589&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007358&hvtargid=pla-696685270019&psc=1

Bit of beer and you'd be amazed at what they attract overnight!

 

[Johno please?]

I went veggie over a year ago and haven't regretted it. Not gone all the way vegan but may try in the future. I don't preach at others, I didn't make this change until 41 so why should I expect everyone else to change just because I have now?

It was a personal thing for me, the main driver being the cruelty and conditions the animals live in. I get this isn't all places but once you see the mega farms like in the US and the fact a pig has no space and can't even turn around... That's no life. There are thousands of videos showing the poor conditions, I don't want to be a part of that.

Secondly impact on the environment generally, less proven science I'm sure, and there are arguements about land being cleared for more veg crops which is bad but lesser of two evils maybe... I try and buy local and organic where I can.

Finally the disgusting state of most meat sold.in supermarkets.

Meat and fish is pumped full of all sorts of chemicals, including dyes, for example smoked salmon only looks like you think it should as it has been coloured, the same happens with chicken. I'm not a health freak or anything but the state of £3 packs of chicken breast in Morrisons... I'd rather go without.

I saw a guy on TV a while back, was a morning TV bit and they were going on at him for being vegan and his kids being vegan too and not giving them choice etc. He had a good response, said let's take your kids to an abattoir and then see if they still want to eat meat.

I was vege for 8 months before going vegan, its just that final step... cows are still brutally killed in the dairy industry and that's after all the artificial insemination and calfs being taken from their mothers.

I notice you say it isnt "all places" but most pigs have no room to move, never touch grass and get abused before being gassed at a few months old in this country as well.

And then theres the lovely egg industry.

Good advert, that got banned for some reason.

 

[katie279]

Slightly non-descriptive name but if you must shop in supermarkets, the soil association is the label to look for IMO, they're free of all the above and decent standard:

The animal welfare behind the meat you buy - Which? investigates

To understand how the different animal welfare standards on a meat farm translate to the products you buy on supermarket shelves, you need to know your label...

youtu.be

But seriously, try and just get from farms/markets and you'll be waaay above that.