Poll: Winter Is Coming - HBO's A Game of Thrones [READ WARNING]

[Moothead2]

Jon was alone in the middle of the field charging the Bolton army. There was no one around him at that point, they were aiming for him. His horse even took multiple hits but he was somehow unscathed.

It is plot armour when they should have died, there's no way they could have survived the initial rush considering they were commanding the line from the front. There are also much better ways of showing hopelessness than creating a situation that feels completely contrived in comparison to almost the entire series to this point.

Plot armour isn't necessarily about a character living or dying, it's about how they end up living. I'd have no problem with any of these characters surviving if it made sense. They newer episodes are a victim of their past. Had the series felt more like a Marvel film from the outset I doubt many people would be complaining, but this is a series built on people's mistakes leading to their death and turning the odds in your favour, not defying them.

 

[rubberduck]

At the risk of venturing further off topic... No but they are generally seen as a given.

In earlier seasons of GoT however, literally everyone was almost fair game to be killed at any point. Unfortunately now so close to the "end" of the stories, several characters are now obviously "protected", until they reach their conclusion

Well that means you have a problem with stories in general as opposed to GoT. Also what a strange thing to say... Absolutely every character is protected until their conclusion. By definition.

 

[AndyCr15]

Maybe people just need to accept that it goes hand in hand with a work of fiction actually having a plot? I believe most good fiction does tends to require a plot of some description right? We seem to live in an age of people just banding terms about for impact and outrage without really thinking about what they actually mean in the context of what they are being used to describe. Do people complain about 'plot armour' meaning James Bond will never die? Or how about the 'plot armour' that prevents the starship enterprise blowing up every week from the dangerous situation it invariably finds itself in and killing all on board?

My issue is GoT wasn't like that. Yes, it goes on in all sorts of shows, but look at who has died in GoT over the years...

 

[MikeTheNative]

I found it boring as the episode had no sense of peril, it would go from shots of the unsullied getting overrun by hordes of undead to one of the heroes cutting down enemies that were coming one at a time at them. It took far too long for a main character to get killed, IMO if a named character got offed early on it would make it a lot more interesting that just watching the heroes cut everything down in front of them

 

[rubberduck]

Jon was alone in the middle of the field charging the Bolton army. There was no one around him at that point, they were aiming for him. His horse even took multiple hits but he was somehow unscathed.

It is plot armour when they should have died, there's no way they could have survived the initial rush considering they were commanding the line from the front. There are also much better ways of showing hopelessness than creating a situation that feels completely contrived in comparison to almost the entire series to this point.

Plot armour isn't necessarily about a character living or dying, it's about how they end up living. I'd have no problem with any of these characters surviving if it made sense. They newer episodes are a victim of their past. Had the series felt more like a Marvel film from the outset I doubt many people would be complaining, but this is a series built on people's mistakes leading to their death and turning the odds in your favour, not defying them.

Jon was alone in the middle of the field charging the Bolton army. There was no one around him at that point, they were aiming for him. His horse even took multiple hits but he was somehow unscathed.

Plot armour isn't necessarily about a character living or dying, it's about how they end up living. I'd have no problem with any of these characters surviving if it made sense. They newer episodes are a victim of their past. Had the series felt more like a Marvel film from the outset I doubt many people would be complaining, but this is a series built on people's mistakes leading to their death and turning the odds in your favour, not defying them.

So you basically have a problem with the unrealistic visual realisation of the battles in that certain characters are able to survive situations which they clearly wouldn't be able to do based on what has been established in the shows i.e. no super powers etc. I guess no one had a problem with the way Davos survived E3? Maybe people would have preferred we didn't see the main characters fighting at all, or alternatively they place themselves at the rear of the vanguard where they can just doss around and hack the occasional zombie. Indeed I believe in S1 and S2 almost none of the battles Robb stark won where actually shown. I wonder if people would be ok with that approach for S8?

 

[Armageus]

Well that means you have a problem with stories in general as opposed to GoT. Also what a strange thing to say... Absolutely every character is protected until their conclusion. By definition.

You know exactly what I mean and are just being obtuse now... conclusion being a more meaningful death/reveal/destiny than just being randomly killed by nothing/no one of significance.

 

[rubberduck]

Ok happy to move on as long as I can post the following summary:

Using the term 'Plot armour' means that either you dislike the the directing of a particular episode in terms of the artistic depiction of the events in relation to the trade-off between 'action' and realism. Or it means that you dislike that you perceive that as a story nears it's conclusion unexpected deaths of significant characters are less probable.

 

[Vexr]

Slightly different from plot armour, but at least GOT doesn't pander to the usual 'kid armour' you get nearly everywhere else in TV and movies, what with the grizzly deaths of two tiny children in the last two episodes. Delightful

I suppose games are even stricter regarding kid armour. The last killable 'child-like thing' I can recall are the Commander Keen's in a secret level of Doom 2.

 

[Scam]

Jon was alone in the middle of the field charging the Bolton army. There was no one around him at that point, they were aiming for him. His horse even took multiple hits but he was somehow unscathed.

I just watched it on YT. The JS army get to him before Bolton's does hence he survives the initial rush. Don't you think every man in his army closeby would be doing everything to protect their leader? They probably viewed it a bit like protecting a quarterback in America football. They'll be fending off every single horse/sword aiming for him.

The story should revolve around them surviving the odds naturally, not merely scripted to do so. But whatever, it’s done now and it’s clear that HBO doesn’t give a ****.

lol some of these comments are golden. Surviving the odds "naturally" What a story that'd be. Very entertaining and well worth a $15m per episode. Perhaps they should introduce people going to the loo, eating their cornflakes for breakfast, being hungover from all the mead, perhaps a few people can die "naturally" from dysnetery or cholera as was common in medieval times. I'd watch that for sure! Very entertaining!

In earlier seasons of GoT however, literally everyone was almost fair game to be killed at any point. Unfortunately now so close to the "end" of the stories, several characters are now obviously "protected", until they reach their conclusion

Yeah. Like, duh

 

[StriderX]

You know exactly what I mean and are just being obtuse now... conclusion being a more meaningful death/reveal/destiny than just being randomly killed by nothing/no one of significance.

But the whole point is that it’s meaningless. If this show ends with some lovey dubby bull, it will have far missed the implied mark it was aiming for.

Surely we are past this as a society? Expecting some happy ending every time is boring.

 

[Armageus]

Surely we are past this as a society? Expecting some happy ending every time is boring.

I didn't say happy ending at all, just if Jon snow was killed by an unknown archer, would it have been meaningful as opposed to facing off against an enemy like Ramsey bolton

 

[StriderX]

I didn't say happy ending at all, just if Jon snow was killed by an unknown archer, would it have been meaningful as opposed to facing off against an enemy like Ramsey bolton

Certainly don’t expect something as lame as that.

 

[Moothead2]

I just watched it on YT. The JS army get to him before Bolton's does hence he survives the initial rush. Don't you think every man in his army closeby would be doing everything to protect their leader? They probably viewed it a bit like protecting a quarterback in America football. They'll be fending off every single horse/sword aiming for him.

I'm not talking about the cavalry charge, I'm talking about the barrage of arrows just before that where Jon's downed from his horse. Literally hundreds of arrows aimed at Jon's general vacinity and none of them hit him.

So you basically have a problem with the unrealistic visual realisation of the battles in that certain characters are able to survive situations which they clearly wouldn't be able to do based on what has been established in the shows i.e. no super powers etc. I guess no one had a problem with the way Davos survived E3? Maybe people would have preferred we didn't see the main characters fighting at all, or alternatively they place themselves at the rear of the vanguard where they can just doss around and hack the occasional zombie. Indeed I believe in S1 and S2 almost none of the battles Robb stark won where actually shown. I wonder if people would be ok with that approach for S8?

They couldn't do it that way at this point as there's huge expectations to show it. Most of Robb's battles are relatively minor anyway, the only one of interest would have been the Whispering Wood but budget didn't allow it at the time I guess.

Davos doesn't have 2-3 fake out death scenes like everyone else so it's understandable as to why he isn't brought up as much. There are scenes where Brienne and Sam are being attacked by 5-6 Wights and should be goners but one of them is killed and they're magically fine. I'm not saying they should hang out at the back but if they had a reasonable plan in the first place they might have been able to survive without resorting to plot armour. I mean their strategy was literal dog ****. The Dothraki charging into the abyss, ******* trebuchets were their front line and they stopped firing them after like two shots, their entire army were IN FRONT of the fire trench for some reason (I mean why bother bottlenecking them and picking them off as they come through right!) and they had two dragons that could wipe out hundreds if not thousands of wights in one swoop that they barely utilised.

 

[BongoHunter]

I find it a bit wierd people will not accept a show like these letting the heroes live through impossible odds.

This show is full of magic and dragons - no one bats an eyelid at these things

It's not about realisim - it's entertainment!

(Edit: Ever seen Die Hard?????)

 

[Efour]

I'm not talking about the cavalry charge, I'm talking about the barrage of arrows just before that where Jon's downed from his horse. Literally hundreds of arrows aimed at Jon's general vacinity and none of them hit him.


They couldn't do it that way at this point as there's huge expectations to show it. Most of Robb's battles are relatively minor anyway, the only one of interest would have been the Whispering Wood but budget didn't allow it at the time I guess.

Davos doesn't have 2-3 fake out death scenes like everyone else so it's understandable as to why he isn't brought up as much. There are scenes where Brienne and Sam are being attacked by 5-6 Wights and should be goners but one of them is killed and they're magically fine. I'm not saying they should hang out at the back but if they had a reasonable plan in the first place they might have been able to survive without resorting to plot armour. I mean their strategy was literal dog ****. The Dothraki charging into the abyss, ******* trebuchets were their front line and they stopped firing them after like two shots, their entire army were IN FRONT of the fire trench for some reason (I mean why bother bottlenecking them and picking them off as they come through right!) and they had two dragons that could wipe out hundreds if not thousands of wights in one swoop that they barely utilised.

Its where i officially decided "I'm glad the show is coming to its end." It crossed the line of "*reality" to just another superhero show. They elevated the main characters to a level now where it's just sad..... I mean Daenerys Targaryen fighting with a sword.... a teenager vs a hoard of zombies. Yeah, just I hope it has a decent clever twist and consign it to history.

* i know how stupid it sounds "reality" but all the characters where fragile mortal humans, good people died to large numbers. Physically strong characters dominated the weak.

 

[Moothead2]

I find it a bit wierd people will not accept a show like these letting the heroes live through impossible odds.

This show is full of magic and dragons - no one bats an eyelid at these things

It's not about realisim - it's entertainment!

(Edit: Ever seen Die Hard?????)

Because this is Season 8 of Game of Thrones, not some Marvel film. Oberyn epitomises exactly what GoT is. He'd without a doubt beaten the Mountain but he let his arrogance and desire for justice against Tywin get the better of him and he paid the price. Same for Ned and his honour. Same for Robb and his naivety, the list goes on. Dragons and magic are accepted as part of the world, as is the idea that humans tend to die when stabbed and overrun by wights, so seeing these characters survive against the very rules the series set out for years is jarring to say the least.

 

[Minusorange]

I find it a bit wierd people will not accept a show like these letting the heroes live through impossible odds.

Because the show generally went against those tropes of people surviving impossible odds

 

[rubberduck]

I am playing devil's advocate to an extent and while I do wish the episode had a slightly more 'realistic' approach to the battle with the living having come up with a more sensible plan you do have to realise that a lot of the creative decisions were probably made for budget/CGI reasons coupled with available filming time. For example the Dothraki suicide charge while seemingly stupid I found as an effective way to build the tension and give a survival horror vibe.. Not everyone agrees of course but thus is the trade-off between realism and budget + creative licence. The white walker storm was of course used to limit CGI time of the dragons and nullify what is effectively a huge advantage for the living. This episode was never going to live up to the hype and please everyone and ultimately the people who loved the early GoT vibe were never going to love what was effectively a zombie episode. One thing I will say is that I don't think having different directors throughout a season is very good for creating a strong overall narrative in terms of the characters actions and approaches.

Overall I did enjoy the episode as a spectacle and while there were quite a few things I found annoying can forgive for the most part. I was fortunate to watch the episode in decent 1080p on a 150 inch screen with 5.1 surround sound, in a somewhat cold garage which probably helped. I would likely think it was a bit naff if I watched it on a tablet etc.

 

[G-MAN2004]

Not sure if this has been posted, but I agree with him. Awful writing.

 

[Andrew_McP]

Plot armour is perfectly good shorthand, and the lack of it is exactly why GoT got its foothold in our imaginations! Going all mainstream movie tosh on us was not supposed to be on the cards... or in the fire. Yes, it's a series punctuated by some rather random fantasy tropes, but they never got in the way of good people getting snuffed because Life's Not Fair. Turns out the Fairness Fairy must have been saving all her pixie dust for this episode, because it was dustier than Danniella Westbrook's nostrils at Winterfell.

Anyway...

Things I would like to have seen, part 93: Melisandre said she had a reason for disappearing back home for a while before coming back to die. Apparently she left some washing on the line or had to feed the dog, because it wasn't important enough to be mentioned before she self-snuffed in the snow. What if she'd been recruiting other Witches and a bunch of them ride out of the dark behind her when she arrives? Nice extra pre-battle morale boost. They spread out to set fire to the swords and then ride out with the Dothraki, while Melisandre looks bad again by hanging back (continuing her conflicted narrative). In the distance we see lobbed firebombs from the Witches, briefly illuminating horrific scenes... then there's an unGodly shriek in the wind and the lights start to go out.

At least that would have been one loose end tied up, albeit at the cost of a few more horses, cloaks, and sprinkle of expensive CGI. I'd also have bought the whole 'suicidal cavalry charge' a bit better if the Dothraki had new, potentially powerful assistance.

Things that would have cost less and been more impressive, part 19: In the crypt the dead don't break out, en masse. Panic starts as banging becomes apparent from one, then two, then... etc tombs. A weak tomb or two might break, however most would hold but weaken (solving the zombie strength conundrum), and the growing sense of dread would have been more powerful than the 'let's kill a few randoms' scenes we got. Tyrion could have had a little heroic moment, Sansa could have got them having a sing-song again... Apparently there was more fighty stuff shot for down there, but it got cut. The whole thing could pretty much have been cut though and I'm not sure we'd have been any the worse for it (though I did enjoy some of the chat).

There's also some post-show discussion with Dinklage somewhere, where he says he was a bit surprised at just how stupid Tyrion was in this episode. But then, as Dany pointed out before, Tyrion's not had a good run of luck recently. Maybe that's consistent, if disappointing.