29 million Bulgarians and Romanians will gain the right to live and work unrestricted in our country
- Thread starter TnT_ZZZ
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Soldato
And not to mention invest in property next to the black sea resorts.
Do you have any facts or figures to back up this assertion that the middle class hasn't already been competing against foreign nationals for jobs?
Because your point looks like a load of horse **** from over here.
Soldato
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Oh here we go, unless you can provide stats then what you're saying is rubbish. An easy way to disregard someone when what they're saying is bleeding obvious.
OK, I haven't looked for the stats yet but I will do IF you are prepared to take this bet...
"I bet that the vast majority (90%) of Eastern European economic migration into the GB in the last decade was into the 'unskilled' jobs market"
Wanna bet?
Soldato
The middle class always have competed. The nature of the sorts of jobs here mean that good people in those fields have always been to some extent internationally mobile. Accountaants, doctors, IT professionals etc etc
I have always worked in largish companies and have always found professionals from far away, I've worked with a New Zealander Accountant, an Aussi and plenty of Indian IT people for example. Thats ignoring the obvious other Europeans and US/Canadians.
Ive just been talking to someone from Rio who will move back home later ths year after 3 years in the UK, again a professional middle class.
The difference for low/unskilled labour is they have historically been a lot less internationally mobile since their wages have not supported the mobility or the barriers to entry mean't they didn't try.
The removal of those barriers for people with a low standard of living means they would be mad not to. Plenty of Poles came to work in building (repeatedly it was said they worked harder FOR THE SAME money). A lot packed up and went home at the start of the recession, Poland was at the point to give them a better standard of living / wage balance at that point.
(Incidentally that used to be why the Aussi and NZ accountants came to the UK, higher salary vs living costs meant they would come here and work and save to be better of when they moved back home.)
So there is limited or no impact on the middle class they have always competed.
Soldato
Double post
No, because that wasn't the point I was getting at.
I'm not disputing that the heftier portion of any immigration that arises because of this legislation will most likely put pressure on the lower end of the jobs market.
What I reject is the assertion that immigration has no effect on the jobs market for the middle classes, i.e. skilled labour. This is because previous restrictions did not apply to those foreign nationals who could immigrate and fulfill a skilled role. Point being that the middle class have been competing for jobs with foreign nationals for ages now and that this notion that they have indiscriminate safety in the workplace is false.
So, in a roundabout way, the reason that new immigration is likely to put pressure on lower paid jobs is because those who wished to immigrate that could do skilled work have likely already done so. For example, the floor I work on at our offices has representatives from every inhabited continent. The floor above is even more diverse and largely more skilled in terms of professional qualifications.
I know these are anecdotal examples, but I'm confident they're part of a much wider norm. Again, for example, my last three dentists have been first generation immigrants. Two of my last three GPs have been first generation immigrants. In fact, when I was competing for my current job, the person I was up against in the final round was Russian. My partner at work is Romanian (incidentally, so is her husband who works for a pharmaceutical company).
Again, I fully accept that this is anecdotal evidence but this is because I can't find any convincing statistics out there - perhaps your Google-fu is superior to mine.
My point exactly. I don't see why it's acceptable for one group of people to have to compete and why it's unacceptable for another to have to compete. If we had a zero-immigration policy, the middle classes would earn astronomical amounts more because there would be an instant cut in the supply of skilled labour in many professions.
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Soldato
Sadly it will be UKIP for me at the next election
Hades , my thoughts exactly .
Question though ? So many past loyal Tory voters are undoubtably going to vote
For UKIP , lets say 50% ( yes I think the swing will be immense ) and the other 50% still vote Tory . Will that let Labour slip in the back door so to speak ?
Oh I wish I buggered of to OZ 20 years ago .
Soldato
irony.jpg
Soldato
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Firstly my intention was never to say immigration has zero effect of jobs at the upper end, only that it has very little affect.
Secondly you are using a different definition of 'middle-class' than me. When I use the term I mean people not just in skilled jobs (For example I'd still regard an electrician as working class) but rather what used to be called 'professional' jobs. So doctors, solicitors, head teachers, etc Basically anyone who pays the higher rate of tax (so £36k and over a year).
Now of course some of these do compete with immigrants but mostly they come from outside the EU. Like Indian doctors for example.
Furthermore, the higher up are the less immigration has a real effect on your ability to live. Someone on 34k a year for example may enjoy their current lifestyle and bemoan any cut but the fact is they can afford to drop down quite a bit before the get to the co-called "living wage" level. People currently struggling to live on minimum wage don't have that luxury.
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Associate
So you could complain about Chinese immigrants instead?
Soldato
Question though ? So many past loyal Tory voters are undoubtably going to vote
For UKIP , lets say 50% ( yes I think the swing will be immense ) and the other 50% still vote Tory . Will that let Labour slip in the back door so to speak ?/Yes of course, splitting the core vote of either of the two main parties will benefit the opposition.
The Libs I think picked up from across the spectrum, UKIP will almost 100% take from Tories.
However with the constituents in reality only some places actually dictate who will win an election. Labour strongholds will practically always return a Labour MP, same for Tories etc
Its the marginal seats where even a small swing from Tory to UKIP could lose a Tory seat (to Labour or Lib Dems) that is the risk.
The tories need to bring back some rotten boroughs and damn sharpish
Caporegime
IT industry apart, there has never been the same sort of competition for middle class occupations as there was in lower class occupations when Poland joined the EU. Yes sure all your examples are true but those are all examples selective immigration through a managed visa programme, not the sort of mass immigration we saw with Poles coming to the UK.
Ironically, there was a recent news report suggesting that Polish workers suffer from the same lazy stereotyping that saw British workers excluded from applying for certain jobs in that although Poles are thought to be hard working, they aren't thought to make good management material. So there were plenty of job openings for middle management throughout the last decade that went mainly to British applicants. I've nothing against Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians or anyone else coming to the UK - but it has to be managed properly and harsh punishments for any companies found using the the sort of xenophobic stereotyping above.
Soldato
People need to read this report before spouting from their ass about wage impact from immigration
I've not read that but I would be highly suspicious of a government report telling us everything is rosy and it has been beneficial. It's hardly independent.
Soldato
let the Bulgarians come, lock the Romanians out. If they come I'm getting an attack dog on the property.
Soldato
In proportion its actually quite a high impact on better paid / professional jobs than on low/un skilled jobs. Its just that its always been this way means its just accepted as the fact, and has not changed materially.
Whats different with these boundries coming down has meant that in comparative terms there has been a much larger change in the low/un skilled area so it stands out.
What your trying to say is that its had less incremental effect, there is and has always been within current generations quite some competition at international level for middle class (call them professional if you will) and to say there is low competition at this level is just wrong. The increase for professionals from this is hard to see as its already so competative you couldn't really notice the difference.
Soldato
"I've not read that but" [insert various unfounded prejudices] [goes to get opinion from favourite newspaper rather than going to sources himself]
hahahaha
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Soldato
Everyone, say hello to your next Tesco checkout assistant.
