29 million Bulgarians and Romanians will gain the right to live and work unrestricted in our country

[Dis86]

They are more likely to be arrested, perhaps, or more likely to be in poor economic situations, or more likely to be the subject of racial discrimination. This doesn't necessarily correlate to black people committing more crimes.

Yes, there are many black people with culture different to the natives, but that changes generation by generation. Those that are my age (24) aren't culturally very different to myself.

No, it's a fact that they are more likely to commit a crime. Unfortunate as this is it cannot be disputed. A quick google of UK crime statitics by race will show this to you. As I say the causes for this are the point in question but the fact still remains. It's by the by however as the only reason I stated it was to illustrate that there are differences.
Also, yes whilst culture changes generation by generation we're not talking about 2nd 3rd or 4th generation immigrants here. We're talking about 1st gen. Those who grew up in the birth country of their parents and thus will have a substantially different culture.

 

[Castiel]

Again, I didn't say unemployment would increase.

What other ways do they pay, tax, NI and VAT..........

VAT on goods to start with, Taxes on Fuel, Cars, Council Tax, and the myriad of other taxes depending upon their personal circumstances.

If unemployment is not going to increase, where is this impact you speak of in relation to it?

 

[Danthus]

What you are really saying is that poverty and disenfranchisement drives crime and that ethnicity is a factor in social mobility?

I agree but you do have to ask the question why ethnic minorities find themselves in those groups.

 

[Castiel]

I agree but you do have to ask the question why ethnic minorities find themselves in those groups.

Social and cultural discrimination being at least one factor.

 

[Danthus]

VAT on goods to start with, Taxes on Fuel, Cars, Council Tax, and the myriad of other taxes depending upon their personal circumstances.

If unemployment is not going to increase, where is this impact you speak of in relation to it?

It is basic supply and demand, if there is an over supply of labour it will be harder to find a job, it suppresses wages too. On that basis it seems a little silly to allow the labour pool to increase.

 

[Castiel]

It is basic supply and demand, if there is an over supply of labour it will be harder to find a job, it suppresses wages too. On that basis it seems a little silly to allow the labour pool to increase.

Again, impact studies have failed to show this to be the case. There is no evidence of either.

 

[Danthus]

Social and cultural discrimination being at least one factor.

I thought positive discrimination was meant to resolve those issues?

And given that every child born in this country goes through the same school system you can't blame lack of education either.

 

[Castiel]

I thought positive discrimination was meant to resolve those issues?

Positive discrimination? The equality act basically outlaws any discrimination aside from some exceptions, normally related to gender equality. Besides are you saying there is no discrimination in the UK?

And given that every child born in this country goes through the same school system you can't blame lack of education either.

If only the standard of education was equal throughout the UK.

 

[Danthus]

Ah, its the teachers fault is it?

 

[deuse]

Wonder if the Germans will start burning down the places the immigrants live in this time round.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Stop talking rubbish. This was talked about a few pages back, I suggest you read the posts.

I'm pretty sure I was involved in that discussion, but shall endeavour to read it.

No, it's a fact that they are more likely to commit a crime. Unfortunate as this is it cannot be disputed. A quick google of UK crime statitics by race will show this to you. As I say the causes for this are the point in question but the fact still remains. It's by the by however as the only reason I stated it was to illustrate that there are differences.
Also, yes whilst culture changes generation by generation we're not talking about 2nd 3rd or 4th generation immigrants here. We're talking about 1st gen. Those who grew up in the birth country of their parents and thus will have a substantially different culture.

Yes, a google of the crime statistics does show that ethnic minorities commit more crimes. However, these are crimes that have actually been accounted for.

Take this situation. A police force can concentrate on a limited number of people, I'm sure we agree on this as the force is a finite size. The police assign 2/3 of their officers to the area of ethnic minorities, and 1/3 to an area with fewer ethnic minorities. Shock horror, 2/3 of the crimes that people are arrested for a committed by ethnic minorities, and 1/3 are committed by the others.

Now, I'm not saying this is actually the case, but this is very much a plausible scenario. When I read that sort of statistic, I make the assumption that not everyone has been policed equally, and not everyone has been caught for their crimes.

Can you see, then, why I doubt such statistics?

Perhaps ethnic minorities do commit more crimes, but statistics like those are not sufficient evidence, in my opinion.


With regards to your other point, I don't think our cultures are as different as you seem to suggest. All cultures are very similar to some extent. I can understand your point, but you would do well do define it like that when you start arguing about it.

 

[Castiel]

Ah, its the teachers fault is it?

Well if your just going to be facetious why bother?


It's the systems fault...inequality within the system and a bias toward more affluent areas with regard investment. Not to mention social status, environmental and economic factors all having an impact on the social mobility of ethnic minorities. It is not really inherent in their colour, but in their treatment.

 

[Danthus]

Positive discrimination? The equality act basically outlaws any discrimination aside from some exceptions, normally related to gender equality. Besides are you saying there is no discrimination in the UK?

Talk about a contradiction.

 

[Danthus]

Well if your just going to be facetious why bother?


It's the systems fault...inequality within the system and a bias toward more affluent areas with regard investment. Not to mention social status, environmental and economic factors all having an impact on the social mobility of ethnic minorities. It is not really inherent in their colour, but in their treatment.

I am not being facetious, I agree the system is to blame but the system is designed to ignore race and gender.

 

[Castiel]

Talk about a contradiction.

It's simply the facts.

Yet you didn't answer the question or clarify your response.

 

[Danthus]

Positive discrimination? The equality act basically outlaws any discrimination aside from some exceptions, normally related to gender equality. Besides are you saying there is no discrimination in the UK?

Talk about a contradiction.

It's simply the facts.

Yet you didn't answer the question or clarify your response.

My point was clear, positive discrimination exists, you said the Equality outlaws it only in the same sentence say there are exceptions.

 

[wildman]

VAT on goods to start with, Taxes on Fuel, Cars, Council Tax, and the myriad of other taxes depending upon their personal circumstances.

If unemployment is not going to increase, where is this impact you speak of in relation to it?

most of which will likely be covered for them through the benefits / working tax credits etc, they would be likely to receive as there is a propensity for many of them to be on minimum wage and thus would require additional state benefits.

This is of course no different than if it was a "native" in that job, but now you have an imigrant claiming state benefits while working and a "native" on benefits out of work.

Surely it would make more economical sense to get all those able bodied natives into work first, then look at filling any shortfalls with immigration ? I fail to see how allowing jobs to go to imigrants is actually going to help the UK when there are still over 2million people unemployed.................

 

[Castiel]

I am not being facetious, I agree the system is to blame but the system is designed to ignore race and gender.

You were, your response was not what I said and you know it.

But society doesn't ignore gender, race or a myriad of other discriminatory factors that impact individuals and groups. As we can see from this thread. The system is driven by society. Look at the Metropolitan Police, designed to be equal in its application of resources and the law, yet proven to be institutionally racist and guilty of discrimination in practice.

 

[Danthus]

Surely it would make more economical sense to get all those able bodied natives into work first, then look at filling any shortfalls with immigration ? I fail to see how allowing jobs to go to imigrants is actually going to help the UK when there are still over 2million people unemployed.................

We will have none of that common sense around here boy!

 

[Castiel]

My point was clear, positive discrimination exists, you said the Equality outlaws it only in the same sentence say there are exceptions.

That is not a contradiction, it a statement about the legislation and the rare exceptions applicable to it.

Positive discrimination is applicable in only very limited scenarios in the UK, as a rule, discrimination based on race, gender, or any other protected characteristic is illegal.