Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

@short (not trying to quote that big post and trim it on my phone :p)

Of course Batman is grim, that is Batman and I love that but he doesn't kill even in new 52. None of the Bat family do bar Red Hood (who I love!) as Bruce is very forceful on the point which I have always found an interesting juxtaposition with his intent to cause terror/fear but drawing a line at death. Oh Damian kills as well, but Bats is slowly driving that out of him.

Superman, yeah ok he niave but again and again his message is one of hope and how much he cares and wants to look after people as they are fundamentally good (his fight with demon fire head bloke is a pretty good example of this) At no point is he grim/fearful heck even in Trinity War pretty much no one believes the evidence of their eyes that he would actually kill.

Re MCU, as I said above I forgive their excess as they produce good and fun films (apart from IM3 :p) if BvS was a good film I would have forgave the creative licence but it wasn't so it just adds to the overall poornes. I love Burabakwr Cap/Civil War arcs, Civil War is amazingly deep beyond the main arc and I think I can see myself being annoyed with this one as I love it and I can see it being butchered. :(
 
Tummy said:
Have all the fans realised that this is actually a terrible film, on a bar with Man of Steel (Synder, 2013) in terms of how bad it is?

It's depiction of Superman (or rather Synder's depiction) is absolutely horrific too.
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I quite enjoyed MOS and was not impressed with B-S.

The Superman in MOS far outshone the one in this movie. Lots of fanboys crying about Zod, but I didn't have any issues.
 
Reading some of the reviews and comments on this make me despair:

I cant believe it got criticised for the lengthy opening Thomas and Martha Wayne scene and then more so for Batman's change of heart as he was about to kill Superman.

The whole thing was wonderfully done and very emotional in my opinion. The film needed that beginning to amplify the emotional impact of the middle scene.

Batman had spent the whole time dehumanising Superman to justify the idea that he was an enemy to humanity and should be killed but in that moment, Superman's humanity becomes hugely apparent.

Batman has been haunted by his parent's death his whole life so it is no wonder that Superman saying "save Martha" would make him take a step back and question what Superman means by it. This time in the flashback, Batman no doubt recognises that it is him who is the criminal and he had fallen too far.

The whole sentiment of the film was about how hard it is to remain being a good person in a world full of evil. It goes back to that quote from Two Face in the previous films: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.". Batman saw he was becoming the villain in that moment.

This comment I saw for example

"I can tell you that if I was in the midst of trying to kill someone and I found out that their mother had the same name as mine that it would not make me decide against killing them."

:confused: Stupid people are gonna stupid. Some people think he just changed his mind because their mothers had the same name, completely missing the point.

Poor Zack, he tried but I guess some people have hearts of stone and brains of cheese.
 
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Jono8 said:
Reading some of the reviews and comments on this make me despair:

I cant believe it got criticised for the lengthy opening Thomas and Martha Wayne scene and then more so for Batman's change of heart as he was about to kill Superman.

The whole thing was wonderfully done and very emotional in my opinion. The film needed that beginning to amplify the emotional impact of the middle scene.

Batman had spent the whole time dehumanising Superman to justify the idea that he was an enemy to humanity and should be killed but in that moment, Superman's humanity becomes hugely apparent.

Batman has been haunted by his parent's death his whole life so it is no wonder that Superman saying "save Martha" would make him take a step back and question what Superman means by it. This time in the flashback, Batman no doubt recognises that it is him who is the criminal and he had fallen too far.

The whole sentiment of the film was about how hard it is to remain being a good person in a world full of evil. It goes back to that quote from Two Face in the previous films: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.". Batman saw he was becoming the villain in that moment.

This comment I saw for example

"I can tell you that if I was in the midst of trying to kill someone and I found out that their mother had the same name as mine that it would not make me decide against killing them."

:confused: Stupid people are gonna stupid. Some people think he just changed his mind because their mothers had the same name, completely missing the point.

Poor Zack, he tried but I guess some people have hearts of stone and brains of cheese.
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+1

You could not have put it any better! Well said!
 
I watched the film last night.
I enjoyed the film.

I liked the cruel batman, broken, sent beyond his moral edge, brought out of retirement by the threat from the stars. The lines of morality left blurred as he did what needed to be done, in order to take down what he saw as a major threat.

Then the human side redeemed by a nonhuman, showing human attributes. Reminding him what he actually stands for.

Lex was okay. Not what I was expecting, the ability to execute calmly was there (plot senator etc) bit openly maniacal however.
Wonder woman was good.
Flash scene, interesting.
I actually didn't mind seeing the other members introduced in the way there were.
Means their own films can accuractely set the scene.
 
Very, very average.

Part of the problem is the way WB/DC(or whoever is in charge) have handled the movie releases.

We don't know anything about this Batman and the parts we do know are told in flashbacks that are far easier to understand if you already know the Batman/Bruce Wayne story.

Superman is a fairly dull super hero and these movies haven't change that. You cannot have Superman in a dark/serious movie and have his alter ego sitting behind a reporters desk 90% of the time. It might of made sense 70 years ago but it just doesn't hold water anymore.

Lex Luthor - far from clear why he is doing what he is doing. Seems more like the Joker than Luthor.
 
What a weird, weird crossover. Boring, confused, tired, extended universe fanboy side story drivel that's way too long, way too messy, way too badly paced and for the love of cape crusaders, can we please stop foam pad bad stories with wrecking of entire boroughs for visual effect every time superhero clashes with some villain? WTF was the idea behind this movie? Impromptu kick in a crotch of a Nolan's Dark Knight just for the sake of closing a chapter in never really properly constructed Superman franchise and opening from-a-get-go failure Superwoman tent pole series?

You know what? Don't even explain, I'm out. It's just too disjointed to follow. I don't even want to see another Batman, Superthis or that, League of whatever in this decade. I'm going to ignore the next few machine gun franchise reboots completely.
 
I've still not seen this yet, it was high on my list of films to watch this year but I've just ran out of steam tbh...
 
The aquaman poster states, unite the seven. When we saw a clip of a scientist at work, was he creating martian manhunter as per the original seven, or cyborg as per the extended superman stuff?
 
Just seen it, not a big comic book fan but do like a good superhero flick. Thought it was 80% pants. Only got semi decent when Wonder Woman turned up(she isn't like what I remember from the 80's TV show :p)
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
Indeed, just wondered if they were messing with things.

So their new seven as they termed it will sub cyborg for Martian manhunter, or are they dumping green lantern?
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Well according to he film Bats/Superman/WW/Flash (who looks terribly cast) Aquaman/Cyborg.

If I remember correctly that is all that was shown so leaves room for one more Lantern/MM are probably the most obvious guesses though they could go full on new 52 and have

Lex

Which thinking through bvs it could kind of make sense a little.
 
Saw this today, went in with exceedingly low expectations and came out pretty happy with it, was far better than expected and I really quite liked it.
 
No1newts said:
Well according to he film Bats/Superman/WW/Flash (who looks terribly cast) Aquaman/Cyborg.

If I remember correctly that is all that was shown so leaves room for one more Lantern/MM are probably the most obvious guesses though they could go full on new 52 and have

Lex

Which thinking through bvs it could kind of make sense a little.
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The seven members are borrowed from New 52, but it won't be Lex. They are:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
The Flash
Aquaman
Green Lantern
Cyborg

We won't see GL until the 2nd JL movie. Still got no idea who it will be tho. Could be Hal Jordan, could be John Stewart, could even be Kyle Rayner.
 
Saw this on Tuesday. Was better than I thought it would be, based on what I read on the web.
My qualms were:
The Batman scenes were the best, I would have preferred a full on Snyder Batman movie. I'm glad this Batman kills people, I was sick of the whole not killing thing after watching Daredevil.

The bizarre future scene while Batman was sleeping was totally out of place. Firstly how can he see the future, secondly he wakes up and some guy is screaming at him about Superman through some future portal, and then he wakes up again from that. It was just too weird.

Everything with Lex Luthor was terrible - the acting, dialogue, actions, just everything.

I didn't get the whole plot to frame Superman in Africa - those guys were all shot, so how could they pin that on Superman? And who was the African woman at that hearing talking about her parents being killed? It wasn't a village, it was a small compound with just a bunch of terrorists in it. And what was the point of the "special ammo" they were using? Why did they need special bullets? The only purpose I saw was so that Lois could connect it to Lex, but what was the point of that? She gave it to the military guy but it didn't result in anything. Unless that's why he went to jail? I thought I would have gone to jail for making Doomsday...

Why did they nuke Superman and Doomsday instead of just letting Superman punch him into Space?

Why did Superman stop Doomsday from killing Lex? He killed that guy holding Lois hostage in Africa buy smashing him through a wall, so why save the guy who threw Lois off a building and kidnapped his mother?

I was disappointed that they made Batman and Superman fight because Martha was being held hostage. I was hoping it would be like in The Dark Knight Returns where it's a clash of ideologies. I thought Superman was going to fight him because he was killing people, but it was way too easy for him to just say his mum was being held hostage and the fight would be over.
 
FutileBreadMachine said:
Saw this on Tuesday. Was better than I thought it would be, based on what I read on the web.
My qualms were:
The Batman scenes were the best, I would have preferred a full on Snyder Batman movie. I'm glad this Batman kills people, I was sick of the whole not killing thing after watching Daredevil.

Batman will no longer be killing people. After the battle with Doomsday, he saw things differently. So come Suicide Squad and Justice League, Batman will not be killing anyone.

The bizarre future scene while Batman was sleeping was totally out of place. Firstly how can he see the future, secondly he wakes up and some guy is screaming at him about Superman through some future portal, and then he wakes up again from that. It was just too weird.

It was a dream. To an extent. But the guy that shows up telling him about Superman is The Flash. That was not a dream sequence. That was The Flash travelling back from the future to warn Bruce about what could happen if Lois was killed. Hence the dream he saw of the future with Metropolis as a desolate wasteland.

Everything with Lex Luthor was terrible - the acting, dialogue, actions, just everything.

I guess Jesse Eisenberg wasn't for everyone. But you can't please everyone.

I didn't get the whole plot to frame Superman in Africa - those guys were all shot, so how could they pin that on Superman? And who was the African woman at that hearing talking about her parents being killed? It wasn't a village, it was a small compound with just a bunch of terrorists in it. And what was the point of the "special ammo" they were using? Why did they need special bullets? The only purpose I saw was so that Lois could connect it to Lex, but what was the point of that? She gave it to the military guy but it didn't result in anything. Unless that's why he went to jail? I thought I would have gone to jail for making Doomsday...

The whole point of framing Superman was because Lex wanted the world (and Batman) to see that Superman was not this saviour he was made out to be. He put the fear in everyone and wanted Superman to be seen as a devil more than an angel. That's why he used those guys to kill people in the desert and used specially made bullets so they were not easily traced. Hence it took Lois a while to get the answers about the bullets. And the final straw for Bruce was when he saw the Capitol blown up. Even tho Superman was there, he couldn't anything to stop it because he was not looking for a bomb. He was there to answer for the incidents that occurred in Metropolis from his fight with Zod and also the incident in Africa.

Why did they nuke Superman and Doomsday instead of just letting Superman punch him into Space?

Cos how far into space can Superman take Doomsday? He'll only just come back. Nuking them was their only option. But it still had no effect on Doomsday. If he wanted, Superman could have taken Doomsday further into space and dealt with him all on his own. But since the nuke was heading towards them, he didn't have that option.

Why did Superman stop Doomsday from killing Lex? He killed that guy holding Lois hostage in Africa buy smashing him through a wall, so why save the guy who threw Lois off a building and kidnapped his mother?

He didn't kill that guy in Africa. If you watch the scene with Lois and Clark in their apartment, he tells Lois he didn't kill anyone. And he didn't kill anyone. Not since Zod has he killed again. He already told Lex he was going to take him into prison without breaking him. And that's more than he deserved. Even after he threw Lois off the building and was responsible for killing everyone in the Capitol.

I was disappointed that they made Batman and Superman fight because Martha was being held hostage. I was hoping it would be like in The Dark Knight Returns where it's a clash of ideologies. I thought Superman was going to fight him because he was killing people, but it was way too easy for him to just say his mum was being held hostage and the fight would be over.

It was like TDKR. The fight was not just about Martha (from Superman's perspective). But from Batman's perspective, he saw Superman as a threat and an enemy of humanity. Because Lex (indirectly) made Batman paranoid about Superman and his ideals. It was only when he was about to kill Superman and he tells him about Martha, that Batman realises Superman is not this evil alien who could wipe out the entire planet. But is, in fact, an alien who grew up on Earth with parents and morals. The name Martha resonated with Batman because all his life, since his parents were killed, he's been living in a world where he doesn't see good guys anymore. Especially since he also lost Robin (likely to be Jason Todd). Superman mentioning Martha gave Batman a second chance to redeem himself. Given that he has been killing bad guys as well.
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I have added my statements to yours.
 
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CK61938 said:
I have added my statements to yours.
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Thanks for the replies. Just wanted to clarify some things:
The vision of the future was confusing, since if it's the flash coming through the portal, how can he project visions of the future to Bruce, he only has super speed? Then Bruce wakes up from the vision and Flash is shouting at him, then he wakes up again, so that's 2 dreams.

I got what Lex's plan was, and that he wanted to frame Superman, but what I didn't get was how a bunch of terrorists shot to death can frame Superman. They would have had to have been laser beamed or crushed to death. And using special bullets was a terrible idea, since that's what led Lois back to him. They could have used regular bullets and no-one would have known who did it.

I know Clark tells Lois in the bathroom he didn't kill anyone, but how is that possible when he smashed some guy through multiple walls? Well he flew with him, but how could he prevent him being killed from that? Just being grabbed at that speed would have crushed his bones.

Doomsday could not come back since he could not fly. Superman could have hit him with one punch and he would have flown away at constant high speed since there is no air to slow him down.

I got the whole thing of Batman realising he had become a bad guy when he was about to kill Superman (they even had a flashback to his mum getting shot there so he saw himself in that guy's place), but what I meant was that if BOTH parties were not absolutely intent on defeating eachother, then the fight loses its power. As we saw, he just mentioned his mother and that was enough to end it.
 
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