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DirectX 12

That would be very interesting. I wonder what driver support is like for it, and if it depends on your version of Linux as well.

Do post here. :)

Done DX and OGL on Windows, switching to Linux now, its not looking good for OGL in Windows.

I see, well is OpenGL's future more interesting than Microsofts "limit to Windows" DirectX?

Therefore market share reductions and Microsoft getting slowly itchy about its place in a world, which quite frankly only tolerates next to its other ecosystem being the Xbox.

I don't know if that's any less cryptic or even correct, but i don't see how Microsoft can save this part of their business for much longer.

Yeah, with everyone jumping on the 'Better API' Bandwagon MS must feel like they are loosing control of their monopoly.

IMO MS has always tried to strangle PC gaming to look after its xBox eco system, the side effect of that is Mantle and OGL now picking up the pace.
MS must be getting cold chills.
 
After some more reflection im coming round to the idea that DX12 is indeed different from Mantle, however its going to be extremely similar in some aspects but that the end result will be a more bloated similar version of Mantle.
 
After some more reflection im coming round to the idea that DX12 is indeed different from Mantle, however its going to be extremely similar in some aspects but that the end result will be a more bloated similar version of Mantle.
DX 12 has to be more bloated to some extent. It needs to be a much more general API supporting hardware from several vendors.
 
That would be very interesting. I wonder what driver support is like for it, and if it depends on your version of Linux as well.

Do post here. :)

7870XT @ 975 / 1500 (Stock)

Valley @ High, 4x AA, 1080P

Win Drivers. 14.3

Linux Drivers 13.10

Win 8.1 OGL.



Win 8.1 DX11



Ubuntu 12.04



Linux Info



Clearly OGL is faster in Linux than Windows, but not as fast as DX, these are old Linux Drivers. (13.10) 14.3 are supposed to be much better, i have not tried them yet, its a pain to install them and 13.10 run very well for me so i see no reason to upset that.
 
7870XT @ 975 / 1500 (Stock)

Valley @ High, 4x AA, 1080P

Win Drivers. 14.3

Linux Drivers 13.10


Clearly OGL is faster in Linux than Windows, but not as fast as DX, these are old Linux Drivers. (13.10) 14.3 are supposed to be much better, i have not tried them yet, its a pain to install them and 13.10 run very well for me so i see no reason to upset that.

Very interesting thank you. It looks that Microsoft along with AMD&NV have clearly been focussing on DX rather then OpenGL on Windows.

It would have been interesting if you had two graphics cards to also see if similar to OSX single card OGL can also meet or beat Xfire implementation in Windows.

It's certainly going to get interesting with OGL, DX12, and Mantle all in the mix and suddenly focussing on dramatic performance improvements.
 
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Very interesting thank you. It looks that Microsoft along with AMD&NV have clearly been focussing on DX rather then OpenGL on Windows.

It would have been interesting if you had two graphics cards to also see if similar to OSX single card OGL can also meet or beat Xfire implementation in Windows.

It's certainly going to get interesting with OGL, DX12, and Mantle all in the mix and suddenly focussing on dramatic performance improvements.

Yeah, good days to be a PC Gamer, if i try again in Linux with those 14.3 Drivers i will let you know.
 
One thing that has probably slowed down DX12 development is the fact it will support multiple vendors. While I'm not going to argue that supporting 4 vendors instead of Mantle's 1 will mean 4 times as much work I can imagine that if it is "close to the metal" then each vendor product will need quite a lot of work done on it. If not then Mantle would be close to supporting more vendors too (admittedly 'we' probably don't understand how close it is to this). Also AMD had all of AMD to do the AMD specific part of Mantle. I doubt the same amount of resource has been given to Microsoft to help with AMD's DX12 integration. I doubt Nvidia would have dedicated any more resource either. So MS has to cover 4 vendors with each one probably having less vendor specific help than Mantle had. So I think it's quite possible that despite DX12 lagging behind Mantle release date wise, it doesn't mean that it was started that long afterwards, if at all. Who knows, maybe it was MS talking to AMD about it and needing their input that gave AMD the idea for Mantle and AMD knew that since their API would only support 1 vendor that they could do it quicker... (I'm not saying that's how I think it happened, but there are probably a very small number of people that actually know).

Yes DX12 isn't actually out yet, but neither is Mantle. Mantle doesn't even go into beta until April apparently. It does have more game support at the minute though. Bit early to declare a 'winner' yet though I think. Doesn't even need to be a 'winner'.

I guess the next question is which API will support (and I mean actually support not just have the ability to if someone decided to do it) the big 3 (AMD, Nvidia and Intel) first? Assuming DX12 will by 'Holidays' 2015 (when is that? What 'seasons' do the Americans have in a year?), how much before or after will Mantle add Intel and Nvidia support?
I think that may influence developers, in time. Mantle might be more like what they've asked for, in some ways, but unless they asked for an API that only supports 1 vendor, DX12 may be more like what they want in others.
It's hard to say, maybe developers are happy to use multiple APIs in order to cover all vendors (I suspect most developers, or the companies that pay them, will want to be able to sell to as many customers as possible, not just GCN AMD owners). If they are then I can't see if being a problem for us, it'll likely just be another graphics option for us.

As for Mantle and DX12 being similar, well they are both graphics APIs trying to do the same basic job. Makes sense that there will be some similarities. Maybe there are some naming similarities because they're taking 'inspiration' from the same or similar sources? (DX11, OpenGL, hardware or driver names)
I suspect if you got a group of structural/mechanical (or whatever) engineers and asked them individually to design a method for getting a steady stream of cars over a river that more than one of them, without copying, may come up with the idea of a bridge. And there may well be some elements of that bridge that will be the same or similar. And that could be because they work in the same field and learnt similar stuff.

EDIT: Also, Humbug, unless you run at stock normally, why not do those tests with your normal OC?
 
One thing that has probably slowed down DX12 development is the fact it will support multiple vendors. While I'm not going to argue that supporting 4 vendors instead of Mantle's 1 will mean 4 times as much work I can imagine that if it is "close to the metal" then each vendor product will need quite a lot of work done on it. If not then Mantle would be close to supporting more vendors too (admittedly 'we' probably don't understand how close it is to this). Also AMD had all of AMD to do the AMD specific part of Mantle. I doubt the same amount of resource has been given to Microsoft to help with AMD's DX12 integration. I doubt Nvidia would have dedicated any more resource either. So MS has to cover 4 vendors with each one probably having less vendor specific help than Mantle had. So I think it's quite possible that despite DX12 lagging behind Mantle release date wise, it doesn't mean that it was started that long afterwards, if at all. Who knows, maybe it was MS talking to AMD about it and needing their input that gave AMD the idea for Mantle and AMD knew that since their API would only support 1 vendor that they could do it quicker... (I'm not saying that's how I think it happened, but there are probably a very small number of people that actually know).

Yes DX12 isn't actually out yet, but neither is Mantle. Mantle doesn't even go into beta until April apparently. It does have more game support at the minute though. Bit early to declare a 'winner' yet though I think. Doesn't even need to be a 'winner'.

I guess the next question is which API will support (and I mean actually support not just have the ability to if someone decided to do it) the big 3 (AMD, Nvidia and Intel) first? Assuming DX12 will by 'Holidays' 2015 (when is that? What 'seasons' do the Americans have in a year?), how much before or after will Mantle add Intel and Nvidia support?
I think that may influence developers, in time. Mantle might be more like what they've asked for, in some ways, but unless they asked for an API that only supports 1 vendor, DX12 may be more like what they want in others.
It's hard to say, maybe developers are happy to use multiple APIs in order to cover all vendors (I suspect most developers, or the companies that pay them, will want to be able to sell to as many customers as possible, not just GCN AMD owners). If they are then I can't see if being a problem for us, it'll likely just be another graphics option for us.

As for Mantle and DX12 being similar, well they are both graphics APIs trying to do the same basic job. Makes sense that there will be some similarities. Maybe there are some naming similarities because they're taking 'inspiration' from the same or similar sources? (DX11, OpenGL, hardware or driver names)
I suspect if you got a group of structural/mechanical (or whatever) engineers and asked them individually to design a method for getting a steady stream of cars over a river that more than one of them, without copying, may come up with the idea of a bridge. And there may well be some elements of that bridge that will be the same or similar. And that could be because they work in the same field and learnt similar stuff.

EDIT: Also, Humbug, unless you run at stock normally, why not do those tests with your normal OC?

Well i actually mostly agree with this :eek:

Lets say AMD is indeed in alpha with mantle and amt it only fully works with the 290 series correct plus some of you had bugs with the 1st beta driver even with those cards.
Now let think of all the Flack MS would have gotten for releasing dx12 in a alpha in a similar state. Its windows we expect it to work reasonable compatible with most hardware right out of the box. would have been a worldwide disaster, so perhaps they are have simpley kept it under wraps under it was a lot further along its development than AMD did
 
Such a shame DX12 is still 2 years away.

Meanwhile i'm looking forward to more Mantle Games :)

It's a shame for AMD that so far the Mantle games haven't been received well (Not Mantle's fault) BF4 is notoriously buggy anyway, and Thief was just well pants. Isn't the next Mantle game Plants VS Zombies? I dunno about you but I just can't get excited about game where you run around shooting things as a plant :p

Whatever Crytek put out on Mantle will be when things get interesting imho. Hoping my boys 7950 + Mantle will be able to get good fps for a long while yet.
 
It's a shame for AMD that so far the Mantle games haven't been received well (Not Mantle's fault) BF4 is notoriously buggy anyway, and Thief was just well pants. Isn't the next Mantle game Plants VS Zombies? I dunno about you but I just can't get excited about game where you run around shooting things as a plant :p

Whatever Crytek put out on Mantle will be when things get interesting imho. Hoping my boys 7950 + Mantle will be able to get good fps for a long while yet.

I'm going to be buying plants vs zombies. Looks like fun. However i don't expect it to be very demanding and i can understand why people think it will be crap.
 
Re: DX 12 supporting several hardware vendors.

MS implements the "high level" general DX API.

At a lower level the DX API makes calls to the hardware vendor supplied drivers.

The driver interface needs to be quite general for obvious reasons.

The driver interface will be discussed between MS and the hardware vendors and they come to some sort of "agreement", with MS having the final word.

Even though the hardware vendors are free to implement the drivers in any way they want, the still need to stick to driver model decided on.

The driver model decided on may favor some hardware features from one hardware vendor and other features from another hardware vendor.

This is the problem MS has when writing a general API supporting multiple hardware vendors.

Dx can never be as efficient as an API written by a hardware vendor for its own hardware.
 
Even OCN is laughing at some of the people here :D

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Alatar is a good man and talks some good sense :)
 
Well in some peoples defence there has been a lot of too and fro over mantle and dx 12 etc i think once people sit back read more and have time to reflect stuff opinions may well change,,
If someone from MS tweeted mantle is incorporated into DX12 tomorrow i'd think its aprils fools then , on reflection when more official statements were made i'd think and agree i was wrong
To err is human and opinions and different idea's, ways of thinking are how we evolve and move forwards
 
Alatar has a pretty bad rep over there, so i would take anything he says with a hefty grain of salt as well as stuff we say here. At the end of the day its all just opinions with very few in the know.
 
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