#MeToo - is it just different for men and women?
- Thread starter Craterloads
- Start date
And I absolutely know that, being from a Indian/Pakistani background.
Women are victimised, abused and suffer harassment all the time. But that doesn't mean that they are truthful all of the time, or that all men are guilty.
The kiss was inappropriate, and unless other things have happened it would be fairly straightforward to move on from this. Is it an example of sexism within football? Probably. If men and boys aren't safe from abuse then women most definitely aren't.
But, and this is more on topic, if this is about equality and eliminating certain types of attitudes and behaviours then it should be about protecting women AND men.
I think that's probably too far. Fired for inappropriate behaviour that makes his underlings all effectively quit until he's fired? Yeah, inevitable really.
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This latest furore over the female Spanish player being kissed is yet another reminder of one of the problems of contemporary Western Society...
Namely that the 'rules' are now in a complete mess.
Women have been told, and many believed, that they were 'equal' to men and that (when it benefits them) they should be treated the 'same'.
But for most men and women things aren't the same and they never will be with regards to how they can 'acceptably' interact with one another.
Whenever I hear the statistics of X% of women report being sexually assaulted in their life I always reflect that I, on multiple occasions involving multiple female strangers and acquaintances, have been the subject of unsolicited touching in a manner that would likely be deemed 'sexual'.
Probably not as much as a lot of women and yes a lot of those women would just of been messing around in a night club when ****** but that would not excuse me if I replicated their actions in reverse.
Of course it never really bothered me as an adult when this happened because not one of those women were realistically in a position to intimidate me and had I thought to have complained I would have been ridiculed anyway.
Much like everyone would laugh if the male Jockey in the Pink protested.
I think this latest incident, as many have been, has been overblown. The kiss doesn't look 'sexual' (any more than the jockey being kissed did) and the pair of them seemed to be, as one would expect, getting somewhat carried away in the moment.
(on a side note does anyone have a link to footage that shows the footballer both before/during and after she approached the man? All the moving footage I have seen starts mid way though their interaction which isn't really helpful - the photo above appears to suggest she picked him up *before* the kiss?)
We're now in a stupid position where he has to try and dig his heels in because nothing short of his resignation will sate the mob that's assembled.
The only sensible policy for men now really is the 'Keanu' position.
(for those unaware Keanu Reaves is often approached by women who want to pose for a photograph and he's a famous 'hoverer' who deliberately avoids any physical contact lest it be misinterpreted)
Namely that the 'rules' are now in a complete mess.
Women have been told, and many believed, that they were 'equal' to men and that (when it benefits them) they should be treated the 'same'.
But for most men and women things aren't the same and they never will be with regards to how they can 'acceptably' interact with one another.
Whenever I hear the statistics of X% of women report being sexually assaulted in their life I always reflect that I, on multiple occasions involving multiple female strangers and acquaintances, have been the subject of unsolicited touching in a manner that would likely be deemed 'sexual'.
Probably not as much as a lot of women and yes a lot of those women would just of been messing around in a night club when ****** but that would not excuse me if I replicated their actions in reverse.
Of course it never really bothered me as an adult when this happened because not one of those women were realistically in a position to intimidate me and had I thought to have complained I would have been ridiculed anyway.
Much like everyone would laugh if the male Jockey in the Pink protested.
I think this latest incident, as many have been, has been overblown. The kiss doesn't look 'sexual' (any more than the jockey being kissed did) and the pair of them seemed to be, as one would expect, getting somewhat carried away in the moment.
(on a side note does anyone have a link to footage that shows the footballer both before/during and after she approached the man? All the moving footage I have seen starts mid way though their interaction which isn't really helpful - the photo above appears to suggest she picked him up *before* the kiss?)
We're now in a stupid position where he has to try and dig his heels in because nothing short of his resignation will sate the mob that's assembled.
The only sensible policy for men now really is the 'Keanu' position.
(for those unaware Keanu Reaves is often approached by women who want to pose for a photograph and he's a famous 'hoverer' who deliberately avoids any physical contact lest it be misinterpreted)
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Associate
I think the other point completely absent from this thread is the sheer infantilisation of society. I mean, what is the actual level of maturity where people can just deal with an issue themselves and don't need state protection, legal frameworks, bureaucratic blankets and so on in order to just deal with a situation.
If we really need legal proceedings and media hysteria to deal with pecks on cheeks, wolf whistles, any contact with our bodies etc then 1) it's an embarrassing state for women to put themselves and 2) I dread for our culture in general as we basically cannot afford to be policing every time someone sneezes in the wrong direction.
Growing up, yes guys were often a bit crude in pubs, and yes they would pinch my bum in clubs and yes builders used to wolf whistle when I walked to uni and yes they often tried to kiss me or make a pass.... what trauma exactly did I suffer?! Absolutely none?!
I fear for the west and it's insane coddling of society... if only psychologists had been calling this out for years.... oh wait, they have.
If we really need legal proceedings and media hysteria to deal with pecks on cheeks, wolf whistles, any contact with our bodies etc then 1) it's an embarrassing state for women to put themselves and 2) I dread for our culture in general as we basically cannot afford to be policing every time someone sneezes in the wrong direction.
Growing up, yes guys were often a bit crude in pubs, and yes they would pinch my bum in clubs and yes builders used to wolf whistle when I walked to uni and yes they often tried to kiss me or make a pass.... what trauma exactly did I suffer?! Absolutely none?!
I fear for the west and it's insane coddling of society... if only psychologists had been calling this out for years.... oh wait, they have.
Soldato
Interesting to hear the presenters (sound female) laughing it off as a bit of fun...
Is this a double standard?
Did he say it was unwanted? Was he asked if it was unwanted like the footballer was and, if not, why not?
According to you... many people don't like hugs so don't dismiss physical contact as ok just because you are ok with it....
Yes and they can either transmit that information through body language or verbally for which any rational person would apologise for and move on.
He could feasibly have kept his job if he apologised, now it's impossible.
Of course, the correct answer here is “That’s what she said!”
Soldato
Agree but the way you wrote it is that there is nothing wrong with a hug, period.
you can see too from the way she puckered her lips it wasn't sexual , which I thought was also visible with Luis.
you didn't mention his colleague.
Soldato
Working in Spain in the late 1970's, visible machismo was seen as of ultra importance to most men. I expect that there are still quite a few that hold the view.
The crotch holding was not particularly edifying either.
Permabanned
Hang on, this doesn't seem to have been mentioned here ......
When the woman who was kissed said this about it why are others assuming offence on her behalf? Is this appropriation of offence something the man should be beaten with mercilesslly?
"It was a mutual gesture completely spontaneous given the immense happiness of winning a World Cup. The president and I have a great relationship, his behavior with all of us has has been perfect and it was a natural gesture of endearment and gratitude."
When the woman who was kissed said this about it why are others assuming offence on her behalf? Is this appropriation of offence something the man should be beaten with mercilesslly?
"It was a mutual gesture completely spontaneous given the immense happiness of winning a World Cup. The president and I have a great relationship, his behavior with all of us has has been perfect and it was a natural gesture of endearment and gratitude."
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I'm abit lost on it all, casually followed it...the players won't go on the pitch again for Spain if he's still coach but the player herself said it was legit okay (as above in your quote from her) but then some press releases saying it was absolutely not sanctioned, wanted, consensual etc etc by her.
All abit confused really, lots of conflicting reports. Guess it's abit too late now for her to come forward and tell everyone to calm the **** down and don't dare assume offence on her behalf where it's not wanted or turn this into some crusade.
Permabanned
I suspect supporters of women's football contain a certain tribal element with strong affiliation to Draconian women's rights and a good number will have forced the receiver of the kiss' hand to go along with their faux outrage. Probably a good number of her own team at that.
I am curious what the female partners of men on here think of it. My wife thinks it's agitators with an agenda making trouble over nothing and that should she be fortunate enough to win a tournament in her beloved tennis matches and received an uninvited brief kiss on the lips from a senior male club member she'd be highly unlikely to become agitated about it. Nor would she be swayed by any fellow players who might attempt a coup by feigning offence on her behalf.
What do your own 'er indoors think?
I am curious what the female partners of men on here think of it. My wife thinks it's agitators with an agenda making trouble over nothing and that should she be fortunate enough to win a tournament in her beloved tennis matches and received an uninvited brief kiss on the lips from a senior male club member she'd be highly unlikely to become agitated about it. Nor would she be swayed by any fellow players who might attempt a coup by feigning offence on her behalf.
What do your own 'er indoors think?
Soldato
Sadly what this woman says about the event makes absolutely no difference now that the "the screeching mob" has assembled to defend her, so her views and opinions will now be discarded by the very people who say they want to defend women whilst ignoring the opinion of the "victim" about the event.
As always, this effectively non-event has been blown out of all proportion by a small but loud hate mob who smell blood and now can't rest until a man's life is destroyed, irrespective of what the victim says, which by the way also included -
Go out onto the streets and start trying to hug some women and you may just be disabused of your notion that there's "nothing wrong with a hug"!
In reality it's contextual....
The man was obviously, and pehaps quite understandably, a bit giddy at the teams victory and the photograph I posted earlier suggests this was somewhat being replicated by the player who looks to have grabbed him and lifted him from his feet immediately before the offending kiss.
A quick 'peck' on the lips doesn't have to be sexual and I would be far more supportive of action against him had he done something more obviously sexual like groping her.
The outrage in this case seems largely confected and invented after the fact.
Certainly not the sort if thing a person should be losing a job over. Unfortunately I disagree with any claim that any other alternative would have been available once the outrage had been put forward.
This movement expects that thoose it accuses must basically be destroyed.
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Soldato
There's no confusion he kissed her and she never consented. I don't know where Chris pulled that quote from but she has released a statement where she said it never consensual
Link
Soldato
Yes he should be sacked, would have kissed a bloke on the lips in the same situation?