******Official Star Citizen / Squadron 42 Thread******

[Curlyriff]

Notice how close to CiG's new big release the usual hyperbolic crapfest of wannabe developers and click bait gutter press are cranking up the decibels on "Star Citizen scams" again?

Alpha 3.0 must be getting near, but i wouldn't know about that.

Yep exactly. It is fun to watch tbh because I am happy in that in total I have invested £45 in total and tbh that over 3 years I have been following it properly isn't much. In fact it's like £1.25 a month being put into it. I would say for what I have got out of the development so far I am happy with that.

 

[Curlyriff]

What is happening with Star Citizen is not normal by any standards. Even if you are a gamer or a developer or a production manager, it makes no sense from any perspective. I really don't think they can deliver what they promised. I even doubt they have a sense of what they promised and where they are at.

They will deliver something in the end and call it a day. So many controversies surrounding this project. One day people will write books about it. Anyway, that's my two cents and nothing more.

However, the amount of popcorn SC has provided to endless of neutral parties like myself is worth the 150m alone. It is a gift that keeps on giving

In what way is it not normal by any standards? What is it that has made you feel this way because I am not really seeing this perspective and clearly neither are a huge amount of other people. Change in scope happens and they can be massive changes that mean years of work are scrapped. It can mean that what the target was in year 1 can be so different in year 2 and then again in year 3 that they are almost completely different developments.

That is very normal for games, certainly for new IP's although of course not so much for sequels for obvious reasons.

Anyone that doesn't see the perspective only needs to look at Beyond Good & Evil 2 because that development cycle so far has almost been identical but with an additional 4 years compared to that of SC. The only difference is that we only really learnt about the finer/behind the scene details earlier this year.

I also don't get the popcorn statements etc. Even if I hadn't invested my view wouldn't change. Watching the company grow, the devs work through the tech, the scope of the game evolve and the lore/story behind parts of it has been great. Just because things haven't gone smooth (they never do and as said we just don't normally see them) and just because there are people who are a little dense or just down right idiotic (DS, looking him) then it is actually still an amazing achievement in what can be achieved in that time scale whilst building a company from 6 people to 500 people there are going to be growing pains, some people wont fit, they will leave, others will be fired. Change in design will happen as new tech is worked out and people have new ideass. Scopes will increase because the funds allow so and people are always asking for more features. It is the nature of such a beast.

They have much better organisation for the last 8 months and have really been driving to show that they have a direction, the reports show this, the ATV shows have shown this. There is a much more coherent direction being driven now and that is hard to miss unless you want to live in 2014 and ignore how things have evolved.

Are they still making mistakes? Of course, could the do things better? Definitely, but how many times have much larger studios made mistakes, written things off, not delivered on what people were expecting based on interviews/blogs/videos etc? Almost if not all of them at some point. Why is it that because we are seeing it all, from the first day that CIG need to beaten with a stick? I guess it's just human nature but I thought this was meant to be about a game. Something we all have fun with.

 

[Raumarik]

DS I don't usually comment on, no point and not worth the effort. It's a developer who's never put out anything even comparable with the worst indy devs and leaves them in a buggy mess. It's incredibly ironic that he's become some sort of mascot for trolls of CIG given his history.

Also as someone who's done a fair bit of project management in recent years what we're seeing is a scope that until fairly recently kept growing. I put blame for that squarely on CIGs shoulders even if it was the community that was pushing for it. Since they halted, or at least slowed that expanding of scope things have progressed much faster. Early management wasn't good, I even state this in one of my videos but they've massively improved. One of the biggest problems has been the need to create tools to make things work or break and improve cryengine which they've done time and again.

It would have been easy for them to make a bloated Freelancer, they've already gone way beyond that. I'm not convinced they are being straight with us on long term timescales yet though. That's my one main area of annoyance if I'm honest but I'm use to it.

 

[NZXT30]

People make fun of DS, an equal amount make fun of CR. I can't even read the words scope and fidelity anymore without chuckling. I'm not here to write essays because no matter what I write it won't be enough. As a bystander though CIG have given me 0 reason to have any faith in them, quite the opposite actually.

I have only one question for you and most SC fans. When is the tipping point? When do you say enough, sth is wrong here. Is it this gamescom? Year 2020? 2025? 2030? There must be a limit for everyone.

You talk about progress but there has been none for a while. When the game gets patched with some content then we can talk about progress. Then we can even see whatever they made is actually good or bad. Like the abysmal flight model and dogfighting we've had for years for example.

 

[Curlyriff]

Yep completely understand that. I have ignored the principles of when CR gives a date because honestly I think he wants to give it us because he genuinly just seems to want to provide us a game that we can enjoy. That is of course a problem with being super optimistic. As you have said and I briefly mentioned above, the last 8 months have been much better because they had finished a lot of scope movement during mid to late 2016.

Yes CIG should take a lot of flak for moving the boundaries but I honestly don't think it is squarely them, they did ask us, produced poles on things about this and showed the tech off that we are seeing more of now in late 2015/early 2016 and if we really didn't want to see it there would have been thousands of forum posts saying as such. There wasn't, almost everyone just went "hell yeah I want that, it sounds amazing" and they didn't really think hang on what is going to happen in the medium to long term and how will it delay things. CIG yep didn't give a lot to feed back those thoughts and let us all just run with it because I believe CR wanted to do it but couldn't be seen to be the only one pushing the features.

 

[Curlyriff]

People make fun of DS, an equal amount make fun of CR. I can't even read the words scope and fidelity anymore without chuckling. I'm not here to write essays because no matter what I write it won't be enough. As a bystander though CIG have given me 0 reason to have any faith in them, quite the opposite actually.

I have only one question for you and most SC fans. When is the tipping point? When do you say enough, sth is wrong here. Is it this gamescom? Year 2020? 2025? 2030? There must be a limit for everyone.

You talk about progress but there has been none for a while. When the game gets patched with some content then we can talk about progress.

Again I don't really agree. The progress is shown in the ATV's and that is there to be seen. They have shown they are trying to change by providing schedules, by being a little more open, by having other featured videos, by trying to give what info they can without spoiling stories or similar. There have been issues, we know that, everyone agrees CR needs to dial in on any dates being provided but they are certainly in my opinion showing they are starting to understand those issues and move forward.

And tbh I don't really have a date. It all depends on too many factors. If I can see things moving forward then I am pretty happy, I can myself currently see that is happening. With that said, I am hoping for Chapter 1 of SQ42 to be by end of 2018 which currently seems plausible to me and I am hopeful that we will get official release of the PU in 2020.

After that I feel it's not so much that I wouldn't want the game or play it but there will be new tech that pushes things that little bit further in certain areas although that is more likely to be graphical than gameplay based on the current premise.

I also don't understand why scope or fidelity makes you chuckle. It was sold on that at the start and still is. Why does that make it funny?

 

[humbug]

People make fun of DS, an equal amount make fun of CR. I can't even read the words scope and fidelity anymore without chuckling. I'm not here to write essays because no matter what I write it won't be enough. As a bystander though CIG have given me 0 reason to have any faith in them, quite the opposite actually.

I have only one question for you and most SC fans. When is the tipping point? When do you say enough, sth is wrong here. Is it this gamescom? Year 2020? 2025? 2030? There must be a limit for everyone.

You talk about progress but there has been none for a while. When the game gets patched with some content then we can talk about progress. Then we can even see whatever they made is actually good or bad. Like the abysmal flight model we've had for years for example.

Let me ask you something.

Do you keep up with the community updates they put out, such as ATV every Thursday?

If its a scam its incredibly elaborate with tens of thousands of man hours gone into some incredibly expensive work done by some of the best people in the industry.

That BTW was not the question.

At what point would you accept it is not a scam?

I'll accept it is a scam when 3.0 is nothing like what was shown of it, by "nothing like" i mean nothing like, not just small meaningless differences that are a part of evolution

 

[Curlyriff]

Oh and I would certainly suggest that DS is much more an issue than CR. CR actually has games that people loved behind him, he got respect for what he done and how he tried to push what we had all those years ago.

DS has literally done nothing but **** people off, spout rubbish and try to cause issues. I am not sure why anyone would suggest that they should be made equally fun of. In fact neither should be made fun off. CR is trying to do something new again, it may fail but he is trying and built support to where we are now with $150+ million saying we believe and want it too.

DS on the other hand should be ignored, or really just seen as someone who is a very horrible person. He has caused issues, lied, been physically aggressive to others and objects around him including trashing a vending machine because he didn't like that his publisher published the game.

Honestly that comment made me chuckle

 

[Curlyriff]

When the game gets patched with some content then we can talk about progress. Then we can even see whatever they made is actually good or bad. Like the abysmal flight model we've had for years for example.

You added this after I quoted you. The first iteration of the flight module is how it would be in any pre-alpha build. We are basically playing with the tech demo to provide the info needed to adjust Cryengine so that we can have a decent flight module and that it will support what they need later on.

At the same time I wouldn't call it abysmal, yeah it isn't simulation and I hope it wont be otherwise we will all take 10 minutes to take off and that would be awful, but the premise is that a lot of what was needed to make the flight module even really in it's first iteration for an actual game release hasn't been added yet. The requirements of the ships physics, fuel, engine power, AI controls where applicable have all been missing and are coming with 3.0

 

[humbug]

Anywho.... Trouble at Kareah.... always fun.

1440P when Youtube decided its done encoding it for 1440P

 

[Raumarik]

People make fun of DS, an equal amount make fun of CR. I can't even read the words scope and fidelity anymore without chuckling. I'm not here to write essays because no matter what I write it won't be enough. As a bystander though CIG have given me 0 reason to have any faith in them, quite the opposite actually.

I have only one question for you and most SC fans. When is the tipping point? When do you say enough, sth is wrong here. Is it this gamescom? Year 2020? 2025? 2030? There must be a limit for everyone.

You talk about progress but there has been none for a while. When the game gets patched with some content then we can talk about progress. Then we can even see whatever they made is actually good or bad. Like the abysmal flight model and dogfighting we've had for years for example.

I see progress week by week and I'm not even that obsessed unlike many with keeping up to date on the project now. I'm more interested in playing what we have than seeing what's coming next. I'm in Evocati, as is Humbug and several others on here who get to play the latest updates when they come out, just like 3.0 etc.

Tipping point - varies, depends on what progress is being made and a bit like a broken record now but I do see it happening or I think I'd have passed my tipping point. I was relatively fed up with delays back in early 2014, I've since slowly been won back over but if I don't see the first 10 chapters of Squadron 42 by 2020 I'll probably be past my personal tipping point unless there's huge advances (and I mean bloody huge!) on Squadron 42.

However being past my tipping point doesn't mean I'll ask for a refund, I've played well over 1000 hours on SC already in the various modules and had an obscene amount of fun doing so. I already have value for money, I'd just be disappointed if others didn't get to play that too. I've got a whole new band of guys online to play with now as well many of whom I'd never have met without SC.. depends where you place value and personally cash is worth less to me than time and people.

If you want a slimmed down history of SC, I've done 2012 and 2013 on youtube already. It's from y my, admittedly biased (pro-CIG) viewpoint though, not a neutral although I do think I'm reasonably non-fanatical when it comes to most CIG staff. Mark Abent is off limits though, he's a god.

 

[NZXT30]

Let me ask you something.

Do you keep up with the community updates they put out, such as ATV every Thursday?

If its a scam its incredibly elaborate with tens of thousands of man hours gone into some incredibly expensive work done by some of the best people in the industry.

That BTW was not the question.

At what point would you accept it is not a scam?

I'll accept it is a scam when 3.0 is nothing like what was shown of it, by "nothing like" i mean nothing like, not just small meaningless differences that are a part of evolution

Yeah I do watch the videos. I don't think it is a scam but I also don't think it will be a great game when its out. I don't question all the developers doing their best for the project. I've never met a developer who is not proud of his work and doesn't want it to be good and proper. The madmen at the top though, they are a whole different story...
I don't see anything that CR is trying to do as new. He had promised some great stuff but the chances of them being in the game are dwindling.

What is 3.0 for you or even the final game? Will you be ok if there is no seamless transition when descending to a planet? Will you be ok if there is a loading screen to enter a base? Will you be ok if you get 15fps when someone enters the instance? I mean they are still selling deep exploration vessels for real money when the game is now known to have only 10 (could even drop to 5? 2? who knows) systems in its release.

 

[Raumarik]

Anywho.... Trouble at Kareah.... always fun.

1440P when Youtube decided its done encoding it for 1440P

That Gladius landing nearly gave me a heart attack, his binds for lateral thrust down is almost as brutal as mine!

 

[Raumarik]

Yeah I do watch the videos. I don't think it is a scam but I also don't think it will be a great game when its out. I don't question all the developers doing their best for the project. I've never met a developer who is not proud of his work and doesn't want it to be good and proper. The madmen at the top though, they are a whole different story...
I don't see anything that CR is trying to do as new. He had promised some great stuff but the chances of them being in the game are dwindling.

What is 3.0 for you or even the final game? Will you be ok if there is no seamless transition when descending to a planet? Will you be ok if there is a loading screen to enter a base? Will you be ok if you get 15fps when someone enters the instance? They are still selling deep exploration vessels for real money when the game is now known to have only 10 (could even drop to 5? 2? who knows) systems in its release.

Seamless transition is likely to happen, size of instances is the bigger problem. netcode has been endlessly worked on and we've still to see progress on it. But then again we've never really been asked to test it either. It's been a work in progress since 2014/15 and honestly I lost interest in keeping track on it but it's a big problem if it can't be worked out. Humbug is far more into the technical elements like this, don't ask him about the engine - you'll be here all day!

 

[humbug]

That Gladius landing nearly gave me a heart attack, his binds for lateral thrust down is almost as brutal as mine!

Those shock absorbers on the landing gear can't come soon enough, he's lucky he didn't snap the wings off landing as ungracefully as that, i've done that plenty of times...

 

[humbug]

Seamless space to planet surface is no longer such a big ask, CiG have actually been beaten to it, ED already does it.

Its not about that anymore, it will happen, for me its just about making a spectacular game, both in scope and visually, by scope i don't mean '18 billion planets', i don't want that, i don't want to get lost and disconnected from mankind in an endless sea of planets that are all the same dull, baron, procedurally generated rocks.

No, what i want is what they are doing, anyone who plays ED and watches ATV knows what i'm talking about.

 

[Zethor]

This project, like No Man's Sky before it, fails to 'Show me the money!!' and I don't get why that is. Why can't they show alpha gameplay from one of the 1st missions? Why can't they let backers play it? I'm sure some of you had fun in the modules they released but modules mean not much and they're not very relevant. I'm skeptical this project will turn into a great game until i see proper gameplay.

 

[DONOHUE07]

This project, like No Man's Sky before it, fails to 'Show me the money!!' and I don't get why that is. Why can't they show alpha gameplay from one of the 1st missions? Why can't they let backers play it? I'm sure some of you had fun in the modules they released but modules mean not much and they're not very relevant. I'm skeptical this project will turn into a great game until i see proper gameplay.

Get your money back and just wait. There's plenty to play in the mean time.

 

[atpbx]

Seamless space to planet surface is no longer such a big ask, CiG have actually been beaten to it, ED already does it.

Its not about that anymore, it will happen, for me its just about making a spectacular game, both in scope and visually, by scope i don't mean '18 billion planets', i don't want that, i don't want to get lost and disconnected from mankind in an endless sea of planets that are all the same dull, baron, procedurally generated rocks.

No, what i want is what they are doing, anyone who plays ED and watches ATV knows what i'm talking about.

It's not seamless though, you switch through three instances between super cruise and getting to the surface, and there is a delay or transition between each.

It's a good solution they came up with and most days it's relatively smooth, but if the servers are getting hammered then you are several seconds switching between various "flight" modes getting to a planet surface.

 

[wolfie138]

Edit: And I should point out that my personal view is that if you pledged monies and backed them that is down to you and you should not be able to get a refund. It is no different to investing in a company with shares or similar that then goes under or doesn't deliver on time. Unless they have specific terms and conditions to do so anyways. Honestly people need to learn to be more careful with their monies.

it's notthe same thing. at KS they're supposed to have done DD and produced a business model that can prove a product if they're given the capital, which is what the KS is for. if someone said they could give you a fitted bathroom for £5k and you paid them, then it still wasn't ready years later, or the company just gave up, i don'think your attitude would be "well i should have been more careful w/ my money".
KS is not a gambling site, that's why projects have been the source of legal battles when they've not fulfilled their promises.