Raptor Lake Leaks + Intel 4 developments

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 16:21

humbug said:
It will be slightly higher than 1% in real reviews because he ran both 12 and 13 gen overclocked, 13 gen is just a clocked up 12 gen, i don't know what else anyone was expecting? That has been Intel's MO for more than a decade, you would think people would have learned that by now.

You can get the same gaming results from 12 gen, absolutely no point in anyone on 12 gen to upgrade.

Well that makes sense given IPC has almost no increase. I wonder if there is even a regression in some workloads as per Intel's own slide a couple of games performed better with 12900K despite 13900K having like 300-400MHz higher P core clock.

Though if IPC is the same and P cores can clock higher with much more thermal headroom to achieve like 300 to 400MHz faster on P cores without any extra heat or power consumption. I would think higher clocks should boost gaming performance at same IPC especially with RTX 4090 which has a CPU bottleneck at 1440P??

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 16:35

Bencher said:
Spiderman remastered with ecores off is substantially worse than with ecores on. I uploaded a video, did you watch it? That's with ecores on, did you see the cpu usage? How can you say it doesnt make use of them when cpu is hitting 90+% utilization.

Farcry 6 also performs worse with ecores off, I don't know wtf this guy tested but he is wrong.

The reason you need ecores on is so you can turn off HT and get +100/200 mhz on the Pcores while still having plenty of MT performance for games that need it (like spiderman). Εven the review you linked to prove otherwise reccomends leaving them on for games. And look at the results, every game performs the same or better wtih e cores on...

Well with HT on, that is how they did those tests I believe. In a perfect world yes it is good to turn HT off, but then limited to 8 threads which should be enough for gaming but tight potentially especially for heavy threaded games when it comes to 1% and 0.1% lows. HT off with more than 8 cores is good, but not so fond of e-cores.

How about a 12 core or 16 Core Zen 4 Ryzen 7900X or 7950X with HT/SMT off. Would that have great performance. How much is the fact they are on separate CCDs for gaming thread cross CCD latency hit. Is that a big problem still with Zen 4 or was it fixed and not an issue. With Intel no latency problem going communicating with other cores, but instead it goes to a weak core being the e-core which is bad for gaming.

uscool · 17 Oct 2022 at 16:41

Wolverine2349 said:
Well with HT on, that is how they did those tests I believe. In a perfect world yes it is good to turn HT off, but then limited to 8 threads which should be enough for gaming but tight. HT off with more than 8 cores is god, but not so fond of e-cores.

How about a 12 core or 16 Core Zen 4 Ryzen 7900X or 7950X with HT/SMT off. Would that have great performance. How much is the fact they are on separate CCDs for gaming thread cross CCD latency hit. Is that a big problem still with Zen 4 or was it fixed and not an issue. With Intel no latency problem going communicating with other cores, but instead it goes to a weak core being the e-core which is bad for gaming.

I saw this posted on discord server

Poneros · 17 Oct 2022 at 16:44

It's interesting but needs more games tested, Exodus is not really stressing CPUs in the same way open world RT games do like Cyberpunk, WD:L, Spider-Man etc.

uscool · 17 Oct 2022 at 16:47

Yes I would like to see it over number of different games but can't seem to find anyone that has

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:08

uscool said:
I saw this posted on discord server

Yikes not good. It is bad with dual CCDs. Even SMT hurts performance a bit in some games. But best set and forget it config is 8 good cores on a single CCD/ring with SMT/HT on for now since there exists no such CPU with more than 8 good cores on a single ring/CCD with modern arch. Darn Intel for using those e-crap cores instead of 10-12 P core Alder Lake or Raptor Lake which would scream super performance with HT off.

uscool · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:14

Wolverine2349 said:
Yikes not good. It is bad with dual CCDs. Even SMT hurts performance a bit in some games. But best set and forget it config is 8 good cores on a single CCD/ring with SMT/HT on for now since there exists no such CPU with more than 8 good cores on a single ring/CCD with modern arch. Darn Intel for using those e-crap cores instead of 10-12 P core Alder Lake or Raptor Lake which would scream super performance with HT off.

Why does it matter if the frames are already high unless you experience stuttering ?

humbug · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:16

You shouldn't buying a 7900X or 7950X as a primary gaming CPU, it is a very good gaming CPU but in buying one that should be your secondary concern.

Just as with the last generation the Ryzen 5800X was the best gaming CPU because it has one full CCD the 7700X is also the best gaming CPU.

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:19

humbug said:
You shouldn't buying a 7900X or 7950X as a primary gaming CPU, it is a very good gaming CPU but in buying one that should be your secondary concern.

Just as with the last generation the Ryzen 5800X was the best gaming CPU because it has one full CCD the 7700X is also the best gaming CPU.

Yes true though interesting point because some said the 590X which actually best gaming CPU as it had the extra L3 cache, Though that does not make sense because form my understanding I do not think the cache is accessible from each CCD to the other one without cross latency. Perhaps was it because of higher boost clocks?? And the 580X seemed to have a severe heat issue relative to power consumption even compared to 590X and 5950X which defied logic. Not sure if the heat issue is the same with 770X vs 790X/7950X. I think not based on reviews they all run so hot!!

Though I suppose the 7950X could be best gaming CPU if you can lock all gaming threads to best CCD and have all other processes use the other CCD?? IS that even possible to do without constant working with process LASSO. Certainly you could assign game threads to one CCD, but what about all other Windows processes n startup to the other one??

Bencher · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:25

Wolverine2349 said:
Well with HT on, that is how they did those tests I believe. In a perfect world yes it is good to turn HT off, but then limited to 8 threads which should be enough for gaming but tight potentially especially for heavy threaded games when it comes to 1% and 0.1% lows. HT off with more than 8 cores is good, but not so fond of e-cores.

How about a 12 core or 16 Core Zen 4 Ryzen 7900X or 7950X with HT/SMT off. Would that have great performance. How much is the fact they are on separate CCDs for gaming thread cross CCD latency hit. Is that a big problem still with Zen 4 or was it fixed and not an issue. With Intel no latency problem going communicating with other cores, but instead it goes to a weak core being the e-core which is bad for gaming.

If there was a 12 core single ccd zen 4 3d that would be nice, but amd arent stupid to give you that.

Until they do, you buy an intel for gaming

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:30

Bencher said:
If there was a 12 core single ccd zen 4 3d that would be nice, but amd arent stupid to give you that.

Until they do, you buy an intel for gaming

Yes it would be nice if there was. When you saying AMD aren't stupid enough to give you that? What do you mean?? I mean why would that not want to sell you that if they could. It would make a killing for them?? Are you saying they have one or could have easily made one, but refuse to do so and if so why?? DO they want to cripple performance or not want users shutting down SMT on higher core parts for best gaming performance??

humbug · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:35

Wolverine2349 said:
Yes true though interesting point because some said the 590X which actually best gaming CPU as it had the extra L3 cache, Though that does not make sense because form my understanding I do not think the cache is accessible from each CCD to the other one without cross latency. Perhaps was it because of higher boost clocks?? And the 580X seemed to have a severe heat issue relative to power consumption even compared to 590X and 5950X which defied logic. Not sure if the heat issue is the same with 770X vs 790X/7950X. I think not based on reviews they all run so hot!!

Though I suppose the 7950X could be best gaming CPU if you can lock all gaming threads to best CCD and have all other processes use the other CCD?? IS that even possible to do without constant working with process LASSO. Certainly you could assign game threads to one CCD, but what about all other Windows processes n startup to the other one??

Most game test reviews are a GPU limitation, and there are only marginal differences, and if i'm honest i think a lot of these reviewers tend to push the margins in favour of the higher end chip just because that is the result readers are expecting, so i don't think they are entirely straight....

There still isn't much difference between the single and dual CCD chips on Zen 3 but if you allow the CPU to actually be the bottleneck they do have a tendency to pull away from the dual CCD CPU's.

AMD Zen 3 Ryzen Deep Dive Review: 5950X, 5900X, 5800X and 5600X Tested

www.anandtech.com

Bencher · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:41

Wolverine2349 said:
Yes it would be nice if there was. When you saying AMD aren't stupid enough to give you that? What do you mean?? I mean why would that not want to sell you that if they could. It would make a killing for them?? Are you saying they have one or could have easily made one, but refuse to do so and if so why?? DO they want to cripple performance or not want users shutting down SMT on higher core parts for best gaming performance??

They are already struggling to make people move to am5. So imagine if they had released a 5900x 3d with one ccd. No one would buy a new cpu for the next 5 years.

humbug · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:50

@Wolverine2349

Forgot to add...

Yes you're right, the game only sees 32MB of L3 because its actually only using one CCD at a time, that moves about on the fly but its 32MB per CCD so that's what it sees.

uscool · 17 Oct 2022 at 17:52

I remember the first time they mentioned about 3d they showed the 5900x in Computex

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 18:28

Bencher said:
They are already struggling to make people move to am5. So imagine if they had released a 5900x 3d with one ccd. No one would buy a new cpu for the next 5 years.

Well yeah for AM4, but why not a 7900X with one 12 core CCD on AM5??

Or can they not make CCDs with more than 8 cores at this time? Cause if they could, why not just regular Zen 4 12 core CPU On one CCD instead o the 2 6 core CCDs in the 7900X??

Robert896r1 · 17 Oct 2022 at 18:33

Wolverine2349 said:
Well yeah for AM4, but why not a 7900X with one 12 core CCD on AM5??

Or can they not make CCDs with more than 8 cores at this time? Cause if they could, why not just regular Zen 4 12 core CPU On one CCD instead o the 2 6 core CCDs in the 7900X??

Fusing off/laser cutting cores to make a 6 out of an 8 core die is a lot easier than having to design and spin a whole new die for a true 12core variant. There's no real use case for it and adds a lot of manufacturing.

In reality, the 7900x is in no man's land. Not good for gaming and the 7950x is better for production. Chances are if you have the budget for a 7900x, you can likely step upto a 7950x. It exists for the sake of filling out the line up at this point.

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 18:35

Robert896r1 said:
Fusing off/laser cutting cores to make a 6 out of an 8 core die is a lot easier than having to design and spin a whole new die for a true 12core variant. There's no real use case for it and adds a lot of manufacturing.

In reality, the 7900x is in no man's land. Not good for gaming and the 7950x is better for production. Chances are if you have the budget for a 7900x, you can likely step upto a 7950x. It exists for the sake of at filling out the line up at this point.

Do they have any more than 8 core parts on single CCD. I heard that Zen 5 will have 16 cores on one CCD.
Are all of their Threadripper and EPYC stuff all 8 core CCDs, just lots of them and the best binned ones packed into their huge sockets for their 64 core thread rippers?? Or do they have any CCDs with more than 8 cores on one at the time??

Cause they never had more than 4 cores per CCD prior to Zen 3??

Kirby Wurm · 17 Oct 2022 at 20:09

Robert896r1 said:
In reality, the 7900x is in no man's land. Not good for gaming and the 7950x is better for production. Chances are if you have the budget for a 7900x, you can likely step upto a 7950x. It exists for the sake of filling out the line up at this point.

Funny you say that as the 7900X was the best selling SKU for one retailer according to an article I read a few days ago, which is unexpected.

Wolverine2349 · 17 Oct 2022 at 20:28

Kirby Wurm said:
Funny you say that as the 7900X was the best selling SKU for one retailer according to an article I read a few days ago, which is unexpected.

I wonder if many are unaware of the dual CCD and in reality being 2 core chiplets which gives less headroom for gaming performance. And just look at it as a 12 core CPU. I used to think the same thing until I learned not the case.