** The AMD Navi Thread **

[D.P.]

How can the 'facts speak for themselves' if you dont know the ACTUAL facts behind his departure and move? He might have been poached by Intel long ago and he was just biding his time and making sure he could pilfer as many trade secrets as possible. Anyhow real reasons are probably tightly locked behind an NDA so we will have to wait for his or Su's memoirs to be published to find the truth.

This.

Koduri was no happy at AMD. He wanted a much larger R&D budget, greater separation between the GPU and CPU business, create APU's with Intel (before Ryzen was a thing), and have a greater independence in bussiness direction. Intel offered him at least some of this.

 

[bru]

https://segmentnext.com/2019/06/26/playstation-5-benchmarks-gonzalo-apu-beats-rtx-2070/

The latest leak puts the PS5 GPU performance above a Vega64 or GTX1080.

So an 8C/16T Ryzen 2 CPU and perhaps RTX2070 or RX5700XT performance?? The score is apparently over 4 times higher than the original PS4.

All that power in an APU, not going to happen.

Just think it would be as hungry as the currant (soon to be released) 5700xt and don't forget to include the CPU's power needs.

Why did AMD bother building the new Ryzen 3000 series and the new RX 5700 series when they could have just released an APU that makes both of them redundant.

Yes I know that these custom SOC's have been Co developed with Sony an Microsoft, but let us at least try to keep the hype in check.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

All that power in an APU, not going to happen.

Just think it would be as hungry as the currant (soon to be released) 5700xt and don't forget to include the CPU's power needs.

Why I'd AMD bother building the new Ryzen 3000 series and the new RX 5700 series when they could have just released an APU that makes both of them redundant.

Yes I know that these custom SOC's have been Co developed with Sony an Microsoft, but let us at least try to keep the hype in check.

AMD never released any of the Playstation or XBox APUs either.

Also,who said it would be an APU? It might be separate chips,and companies like MS and Sony tend to subsidise their consoles anyway.

Moreover,Sony and MS have kind of confirmed some of the specs - one of them being the XBox having an 8C Zen2 based CPU. The cheapest Zen2 8C part will be £300+ next month. By next year I expect 7NM will be cheaper anyway.

The 2020 GPUs might be much better IMHO. You are not gaining a ton of normal performance on average over a sub £500 2017 GTX1080 or Vega64 with current offerings.

 

[D.P.]

AMD never released any of the Playstation or XBox APUs either.

Also,who said it would be an APU? It might be separate chips,and companies like MS and Sony tend to subsidise their consoles anyway.

Moreover,Sony and MS have kind of confirmed some of the specs - one of them being the XBox having an 8C Zen2 based CPU. The cheapest Zen2 8C part will be £300+ next month. By next year I expect 7NM will be cheaper anyway.

The 2020 GPUs might be much better IMHO. You are not gaining a ton of normal performance on average over a sub £500 2017 GTX1080 or Vega64 with current offerings.

Cost is not actually the most questionable part. It is power. No way will Sony be wanting a 500w console.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Cost is not actually the most questionable part. It is power. No way will Sony be wanting a 500w console.

The PS4 PRO PSU is rated upto 310W at the wall:
https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/8/12841606/ps4-pro-vs-ps4-slim-comparison-which-ps4-do-i-buy-guide

XBox One X PSU is rated at 245W with a 2560 shader Polaris part using a huge 384 bit GDDR5 memory bus:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11992/the-xbox-one-x-review/2

It uses a Polaris based part with 2560 shaders,instead of the 2304 in the RX480/RX580/RX590 cards but with a 384 bit GDDR5 memory controller. In terms of TFLOP rating its around the same as an RX580 with 384 bit memory bus and not a 256 bit one.

Lets look at how much an RX580 consumes in power:
https://tpucdn.com/review/sapphire-rx-580-nitro-plus/images/power_peak.png
https://tpucdn.com/review/sapphire-rx-580-nitro-plus/images/power_average.png

214W to 240W at the PCI-E power connectors. So using desktop parts as a measurement is not really indicative of what sort of power the GPU part will consume,as a desktop RX580 will not be able to run off a XBox One X PSU,despite the GPU having more shaders and a much bigger memory controller and loads of GDDR5.

The Ryzen 7 3700X is a 65W TDP part,and I expect the part in the consoles will be clocked lower with no dynamic clockspeeds(so lower TDP and power consumption). A Navi 5700XT according to AMD is upto 225W board power,and I expect again the console part will be clocked lower,and remember the consoles are being released next year,so 7NM will be in a better state and cheaper.

To put this in context my whole SFF PC system,with a 65W TDP Ryzen 5 2600,loads of drives and a GTX1080FE is well under 300W at the wall in every game. I think max was 270W to 280W.

So nah,I think its all doable in a 2020 system without needing 500W. I don't even use a 500W PSU myself,I use a 450W one which is more than Corsair used for their GTX1080 systems at 400W.

Also if Sony and MS are looking at using NVME SSDs and not cheap SATA drives,it tells you they are definitely looking to push performance a bit more than normal. Stuff like Stadia is potentially a thorn in the side of the traditional console business IMHO.

I also expect the next consoles will cost more too.

It will be quicker but take a lot of those benchmarks with a grain of salt. What were they running that 2080 at 1515mhz stock?

Its better to compare AMD to AMD,as the score for the RTX2070 is less than a Vega 64 and the RTX2070 is a faster card. A downclocked RX5700XT or an RX5700 variant should hit those scores,and the big jump in CPU performance will help a lot with higher FPS in the next generation of consoles. The Jaguar based cores are probably holding back the GPU in the XBox One X IMHO.

 

[Panos]

Maybe, but if people are still buying, then what good is this criticism? If you pay the premium, then you're saying that it's acceptable. That's the message these companies are getting, and they will continue to push the boundaries as long as the money keeps coming.

We need the new generation of consoles to arrive and start competing with PC, because if this gouging continues, consoles might actually become the more attractive option for everyone but the most diehard enthusiasts.

If the recently leaked PS5 benchmarks are true, it tad slower than the RTX2080 and faster than the GTX1080, and is inline with MS video saying that the next Xbox is 4 times faster than the XBX.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think people also need to realise what do the PS4 PRO and XBox One X,have compared to current desktop systems,ie,an RX470 and an RX580 respectively in terms of TFLOPs. If we say the GPU in the next generation is around Vega64 performance,it will be just over double the performance of a PS4 PRO and 60% to 70% faster than the XBox One X GPUs. RTX2070 level performance will be more like a 2.5X increase over the PS4 PRO and just under twice the increase over the XBox One X.

The move from the PS4 to PS4 PRO and XBox One to XBox One X GPUs in terms of TFLOPs was more than double in both cases.

If Vega 64 or GTX1080 is more than what sub £300 new generation mainstream performance is even in 2020 then the consoles deserve success then.If we are stuck with similar performance for similar money in 2020,then they deserve it even more.You could get a GTX1080 or Vega 64 for £430 to £450 in late 2017.

Its bad enough now under £300 or $300. The fastest part launched under that price is the GTX1660TI which is around 35% faster than a mid 2016 GTX1060(although better than the RX590). Reduced price Vega 56 cards are better,but are not even 50% faster than an RX480.

 

[TheRealDeal]

I think when you add up everything 4 x more powerful is achievable. The ryzen cpu alone may well be 4 times more powerful, most likely around double the gpu power, the ssd alone will be game changing for consoles, more and faster memory. It should all add up to being around 4 x better. I am more excited about the next consoles than i have been for any Gpu launch in a long time. Hopefully they bring in mouse and keyboard support as well to top it all off.

 

[nashathedog]

How can the 'facts speak for themselves' if you dont know the ACTUAL facts behind his departure and move? He might have been poached by Intel long ago and he was just biding his time and making sure he could pilfer as many trade secrets as possible. Anyhow real reasons are probably tightly locked behind an NDA so we will have to wait for his or Su's memoirs to be published to find the truth.

The facts are what we do know and they were all written in that post, I may be only giving an opinion but at least mine's feasible & in my opinion highly likely, If he'd been poached long ago Intel wouldn't of wanted to wait so long, Intel were in a bit of a rut as they'd had the position open for several months after the unexpected resignation of the last boss over a workplace romance, I'm more inclined to think he got the job at Intel because they were getting desperate for someone to fill the position not because they poached him, Based off his track record at Radeon I certainly wouldn't want to employ him to a management position. And as far as him stealing secrets, that's unlikely but I wouldn't put anything past him if he thought he could get away with it, I think he comes across like that sort of guy.

 

[Troezar]

Load more potential Navi SKUs registered by Sapphire, up to the 5950XT. Story on Videocardz about it.

Also looks like Super won't be precipitating much in the way of cuts to the vanilla prices. I don't see Navi dropping if Nvidia hold their prices. I could be struggling to buy something unless I stump up extra cash...

 

[FoxEye]

Load more potential Navi SKUs registered by Sapphire, up to the 5950XT. Story on Videocardz about it.

Also looks like Super won't be precipitating much in the way of cuts to the vanilla prices. I don't see Navi dropping if Nvidia hold their prices. I could be struggling to buy something unless I stump up extra cash...

Here come the £1000 Navi cards, boys! Excited yet? I know I'm not.

 

[Troezar]

Here come the £1000 Navi cards, boys! Excited yet? I know I'm not.

Nope. I'd go for a £350 Navi midrange card. I may go for a Radeon VII if 2080's don't drop but I really don't want to. Navi 20 could be very expensive by the time it shows up.

 

[TheRealDeal]

The same article does say this

We suspect that these are just placeholders. Sapphire simply registered all possible trademarks to save time. It seems very unlikely that Radeon RX 5000 series would feature that many SKUs. AMD has not released this many cards in a very long time.

However, it is possible that AMD still has something to say in the high-end and enthusiast market segments. There had to be a reason why AMD did not name the Navi10-based models as RX 5900 or RX 5800. A dual-GPU RX 5950XT anyone?

AMD Radeon RX 5950XT
AMD Radeon RX 5950
AMD Radeon RX 5900XT
AMD Radeon RX 5900
AMD Radeon RX 5850XT
AMD Radeon RX 5850
AMD Radeon RX 5800XT
AMD Radeon RX 5800
AMD Radeon RX 5750XT
AMD Radeon RX 5750
AMD Radeon RX 5700XT
AMD Radeon RX 5700
AMD Radeon RX 5650XT
AMD Radeon RX 5650
AMD Radeon RX 5600XT
AMD Radeon RX 5600
AMD Radeon RX 5550XT
AMD Radeon RX 5550
AMD Radeon RX 5500XT
AMD Radeon RX 5500
AMD Radeon RX 590XT

 

[Zernath]

Nope. I'd go for a £350 Navi midrange card. I may go for a Radeon VII if 2080's don't drop but I really don't want to. Navi 20 could be very expensive by the time it shows up.

I went for the VII in the end. Managed to find a good deal, and I can't see Nvidia dropping their prices any time soon. I think we're stuck with this market now, and it can only get worse, unless someone forces a price war.

 

[Grim5]

5700xt and 3700x performance in a console for $500, yes please!

PS5 going to sell like hotcakes

 

[FoxEye]

5700xt and 3700x performance in a console for $500, yes please!

PS5 going to sell like hotcakes

I think it will.

Because even if it doesn't quite reach those performance levels (and there's every chance it will/can do more with less on a closed platform), the PC alternative is 3x the asking price.

We're moving to a world where putting together a mid-range PC is going to cost £1000.

GPUs are obviously the major culprit here, with both sides asking £400+ for their mid-range offerings (after Vega stock is gone). Motherboards are heading north of £200. A low-end 3600 CPU is >£200. That's like £700 minimum on 3 components, lol. To match the console spec... Forget your 480/1060 GPUs the new consoles will obliterate them. Assuming the worst case scenario that the consoles are £500. And that you already have a PSU,RAM,etc,etc, for the PC that don't need upgrading.

So at the very least the PC platform (upgrade) will cost £200 more for the same experience.

Listen, I like the PC as a platform and it's been my main gaming platform since 1992 or so. But the pricing trends are undeniable. There are many factors, including potentially AMD and nVidia not seeing the PC market as their main market any longer. And AMD now having a massive vested interest in consoles.

But frankly I can see the next console gen offering a more compelling alternative to PC gaming than has been the case at any time in the last decade.

I think the competition is about to get a lot tougher for the PC. Many people will really ask themselves if it's worth sticking with (as a gaming platform).

 

[shankly1985]

If I being honest I think this Gen of consoles will be closed water cooled units. Smaller form factor and will require water to get high clocks on the APU.

 

[Martini1991]

If I being honest I think this Gen of consoles will be closed water cooled units. Smaller form factor and will require water to get high clocks on the APU.

No way they're putting out watercooled consoles as standard.

 

[Grim5]

Yeah no way it’s AIO cooled.

They may try fancy vapor chambers and ways to dissipate but no water loops. Not only is AIO too expensive but it would make the console bigger and reduce its lifespan.

So the consoles coolers are likely to look a bit like the air cooled graphics card with its heat pipes and off shaped heat sinks

 

[hyperseven]

Yeah no way it’s AIO cooled.

They may try fancy vapor chambers and ways to dissipate but no water loops. Not only is AIO too expensive but it would make the console bigger and reduce its lifespan.

So the consoles coolers are likely to look a bit like the air cooled graphics card with its heat pipes and off shaped heat sinks

Xbox One X already uses a Vapor chamber cooler to handle its AMD APU.