Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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They didn't pass a law to ban the Russian language - it got veto'd. I can't say I blame them wanting to get rid of Soviet era statues given what being part of the Soviet Union cost Ukraine.

I think we've already established that anyone who Russia invades "brings it on themselves".

Even though I said I wont respond to you no more....

I`ll just leave this here.....

800px-Soviet_War_Memorial_Tiergarten_Berlin.JPG


This is in Berlin... No one EVER in Germany has even thought about removing this.

Ukranian-nationalist are so dumb that they are removing statues to the person who created Ukraine as a being, aka Lenin.... As many others said, if you want to get rid of Soviet memory, they should also blow up their roads,houses,factories because 95% of things in Ukraine were built by damn commies.
 
Interesting propaganda posters pre referendum:

"On 16th March we vote:
[swastika with barb wire] OR [russian flag]
crimeaposter.jpg


You have to give it to Ruskies, they move fast like Blizkrieg.

Ruskies are using the situation to their advantage, if the opposition did not remove the President after a deal was signed with western and Russian observers, all of this wouldn't have happened.

Sometimes I wonder, if this all have been a plan all along... Because the new Ukrainian government just gave Putin green light to bite off whole eastern Ukraine... With support of those regions population.
 
I found a good video from German Bundrstag, I see it as balanced and mostly unbiased... Translation is only in text, if you know German you can watch original.


Translation;

13.03.2014, Bundestag, Berlin, Germany.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXLy0NGW9sM

Gregor Gysi of the german Party "Die Linke" to the situation in Ukraine.
Translation by "iskra".

"The leader of the opposition, Gregor Gysi, will speak now:

Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen. Putin wants to solve the whole crisis in Ukraine militarily. He has not understood that the problems of humanity can neither be solved by soldiers, nor by weapons. On the contrary. Also Russia’s problems cannot be solved this way. His thinking and his actions are wrong and we condemn them explicitly. Yet, it is the same thinking that was and is present in the west for Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. System confrontations were replaced by the opposing interests of the USA and Russia. The Cold War is over, but such opposing interests can lead to very similar traits. The USA want to gain more influence and defend existing influence and Russia wants to gain more influence and defend existing influence. When talking about Russia, I shall only mention Georgia, Syria, Ukraine.

Even when one condemns Putin’s actions, one must also look at how the whole confrontation and intensification came to be. And I shall tell it to you very clearly: Everything that the NATO and the EU could have done wrong, was done wrong.

I begin with Gorbachev in the year 1990. He suggested to form a common European house: Dissolving of the NATO and the Warsaw Pact and finding a common security with Russia. This is what the NATO denied. They said: Dissolving the Warsaw Pact: Yes. The NATO stays… And from the defending alliance was made an interventional alliance. The second error: With the creation of German unity, the US foreign minister and the German foreign minister of the time, Genscher, and other foreign ministers told Gorbachev: No eastwards extension of the NATO will take place. This promise was broken. There was a radical extension of the NATO towards Russia. And the former US foreign minister Robert Gates described the rapid inclusion of the East European states into the NATO as a grave mistake and the attempt of the West to include Ukraine into the NATO as grave provocation - that’s not what I said, this was said by the former US foreign minister! Then, third, the decision was made to station rockets in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russian government said: This concerns our security interests, we do not want this. The West couldn’t care less and it was done anyway. And finally, the NATO gravely and repeatedly violated international law in the Yugoslavian war. This is meanwhile even confirmed by former German chancellor Schröder. Serbia had not attacked another state and there was no decree of the UN Security Council. And yet, bombs were dropped, and for the first time since 1945 with German involvement. The citizens of Kosovo were allowed to decide for the separation from Serbia in a plebiscite.

Back then, I heavily criticised these violations of international law and I have told you for the case of Kosovo that a Pandora’s Box is being opened. Because if this is allowed in Kosovo, then you must also allow it in other regions. You insulted me. You did not take it seriously. And you did this because you thought you were such victors of the Cold War that all old measures were not applicable to you anymore. I tell you: The Basks ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. The Catalans ask why they can’t have a plebiscite that asks whether they want to belong to Spain or not. And so do the citizens of Crimea. And through violation of international law, through habitual law, you can create new international law, you know that. Yet, my opinion stands that the detachment of Crimea would be violating international law - as was the detachment of Kosovo.

I knew that Putin would refer to Kosovo and that is just what he did. And now you, Ms. chancellor, tell me that this situation is totally different. [Someone (Ms. Roth?) shouting “It is!”]. Yes, that may be… But you disregard that international law violation is international law violation. My dear Ms. Roth, why don’t you ask a judge if a theft of noble motive is not a theft in comparison to a theft of non-noble motive. He will tell you that it stays a theft. That is the problem! That is the problem! And Mr. Struck has explained a while ago that the Federal Republic of Germany must defend its security at the Hindu Kush. Now Mr. Putin explains Russia must defend its security at Crimea. Germany, by the way, had no fleet at Hindu Kush and was considerably further away. Still I say, both sentences were and are wrong.

Yet, the following holds: When many international law violators blames international law violator Russia to violate international law, this is not particularly effective and trustworthy. That is the fact we are facing. Obama spoke, like you, Ms. chancellor, of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nations. But, these two principles were violated in Serbia, Iraq and Lybia. The West thought it could violate international law because the Cold War was over. Chinese and Russian interest were heavily underestimated. You did not take Russia with Yeltsin, who was often even drunk, serious anymore. But the situation changed. Very lately, you now again reference the principles of international law that were established in the Cold War. I am very much in favour of them being valid again, but then for all! This is the only way.

Then there was the tug of war between the EU and Russia with Ukraine in the middle. Both thought and acted the same. Barroso, head of the European Commission, said EITHER customs union with Russia OR contracts with us. He did not say BOTH. Either-or! And Putin said EITHER contracts with us OR the EU. Both thought and acted alternatively in the same way. It was a gigantic mistake from both sides. No EU foreign minister tried to speak to the Russian government while even recognising the rightful security interests of Russia. Russia is afraid that behind the EU, the NATO will enter Ukraine. It feels more and more surrounded. But everyone pulled at Ukraine. The EU and NATO foreign ministers completely ignored the history of Ukraine. They never understood the importance of Crimea to Russia. And Ukrainian society is deeply divided. Also this was not recognised. This deep division already showed in WWII. And it shows today. East Ukraine tends to Russia, West Ukraine tends to western Europe. At this moment, there is no single Ukrainian political figure that could represent both parts of society. That is a sad truth.

And then there is the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which you gravely neglected, Ms. chancellor, Mr. foreign minister. The funding for these organisations was cut more and more in the past because you thought they were not important. Yet they are the only organisations in which both Russia and Ukraine also take part. Thus we must strengthen these organisations and not discuss over Russia’s exclusion. That is completely missing the point.

Then we saw a massive intensification on Maidan. Then we saw snipers and many deaths. There are various rumours. In such situations, people lie a lot. And that is why, in such situations, we propose an international investigation committee. We and the Ukrainians have a right to know what happened there, who is responsible… And I am happy that you support this, Ms. chancellor. On Maidan, there were many democratic forces. But also fascists. The west was directly and indirectly involved. And then foreign minister Steinmeier, the French and Polish foreign minister signed a contract with Janukovych and the opposition. And now you say, Mr. foreign minister, Janukovych dissolved the contract through his fleeing. That is wrong. The people on Maidan rejected this contract with great majority. And you, Mr. foreign minister, also did not advertise for this contract on the site. And only after the rejection, Janukovych left Kiev. Then, parliament had a meeting, and they voted him out of office with 72.88%. Yet, the constitution dictates 75%. Now Mr. Röttgen and others say, well, during a revolution you can’t take the constitution to the letter, what are a few percentiles more or less?… But Putin references this and says there was no constitutional majority to vote him out of office, and refers to documents received from Janukovych. By the way, during the poll, armed soldiers were present. Not very democratic. During the plebiscite in Crimea on Sunday, there will also be armed soldiers. Also not very democratic. Interesting is also that you, Ms. chancellor, say, that such a plebiscite is forbidden by the Ukrainian constitution. So when is the constitution to be upheld, and when not? When electing the president out of office it is not and for the plebiscite in Crimea it is? You should decide whether you accept the constitution as a whole or only in specific cases when you feel like it. The latter is the way I have seen and don’t like.

Then a new government was formed. Directly accepted by president Obama, also by the EU, also from Germany. Ms. Merkel! This government’s vice premier minister, the defence minister, the agricultural minister, the environmental minister, the Attorney General… are fascists! The head of the national security committee was co-founder of the fascist Swoboda party. Fascists have important positions and dominate, for example, the security sector. And never have fascists voluntarily given up power once they had conquered a part of it. At least Germany should have drawn the line here, especially because of our history. When Haider’s FPÖ joined the government in Austra, there were even contact barriers! And with the fascists in Ukraine we do nothing?! Swoboda has close contacts to the NPD and other nazi parties in Europe. The chairman of this party, Olek Tjahnybok, has stated the following. I am going to quote him now. You need to grasp this, what he has said literally: “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. End of quote. I repeat. This man has said “Grab your weapons. Fight the Russian pigs, the Germans and the Jew swines and others pests”. Attacks on jews and left-wingers are now common and to all this you say nothing? You talk with these Swoboda people? I think this is a scandal. I have to tell you this clearly.

Now you want, as you said, to impose sanctions, if all else fails. But they will not impress Putin. They will only make the situation worse. Kissinger, the former US foreign minister, is right. He says sanctions do not express a strategy but the lack of a strategy. That also holds for the escalating military flights over Poland and the Baltic states: What’s the point? Accounts of Janukovych and his supporters are blocked because they contain stolen state funds. My question: You did not know this? Second question: Why only their accounts? What is with the billions of oligarch money to support others, why aren’t you interfering there? Why is this going so one-sided?

There is only the way of diplomacy! First: The West must recognise the legitimate security interests of Russia on Crimea, which is by the way also how US foreign minister Kerry sees it. We must find a status for Crimea with which Ukraine, Russia and we can live. We have to guarantee Russia that Ukraine will not become a NATO member. Second: The perspective of Ukraine lies in a bridge function between the EU and Russia. Third: A process of understanding between east and west must be initiated in Ukraine, maybe through a federal or confederal status, maybe even through two presidents. What I accuse the EU and the NATO of: Until today, no relationship to Russia has been searched or found. This has to change dramatically. Security in Europe is not possible against or without Russia but only with Russia. And if the crisis is overcome one day, one advantage could be that international law is finally recognised by all sides again. Thank you. "
 
How are they supposed to leave Crimea since the Kremlin now controls all the transport infrastructure?

That is a genuine worry though.... With Putin himself controlling transport and infrastructure, he could just turn the red lights at all signals in Crimea and the Ukranian forces will be forever stuck, with no chance for escape....

This is something that has to be bought up at highest level on UN meetings.
 
Well done, you've learnt sarcasm. Given where you started from at the start of this thread I'm impressed. For your next lesson I suggest cynicism.

This is what I really hope doesn't happen but fear it might; Russian troops storm the Ukrainian bases on 21st March, shoot any troops who resist and take the remaining Ukrainian soldiers prisoner and transport them back to Russia, where after a few weeks they get released back to Ukraine in a humiliating parade in front of Russia Today cameras. To predict Putin, all you have to do is be a pessimist.

I am sure the red light scenario is far more amusing.

P.S

Its not sarcasm, it is about finding a lower intelligence ground so we can interact.... As your sig suggests your IQ is a mere 100.

:D
 
All we have done is that we sent Putin popularity rating in Russia through the roof... The more sanctions we impose on Russia, the more its people will support aggressive dictatorship against the west.

2 Years ago Maidan on Red Square against Putin was a possibility, now.... He wont even need to intervene, people will crush the protesters on their own without government forces.

All we can do now, is spend billions to turn Ukraine into Germany maybe that way Russians will go against Putin, but with reports and videos coming in that "Right Sector" Is storming factories now and officially witch-hunting pro-yanukovich people this is going to be ugly.

We cant sort our own economy, how we going to turn around a Soviet Era country with 50 odd million people....

The way I see is that we completely solidified Putin in Russia, he will rule until his death and even after his ideology will continue.

You are wrong to assume that the "Poland" example will work... Russians are proud people and they would rather die alone in poverty than to be regarded as a nation that has become a slave to the West. This whole situation with Ukraine has either been planned to play on Putins hand from beginning or we have messed up incredibly bad.

Russians dont care that there is tonns of corruption in the country and that everything is at Africa level, if Putin can deliver aggressive moves on International Arena and maintain Russia as a country that is feared of, they will be happy... It is something we in the West will never understand.
 
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He doesn't have any say in foreign policy, putting sanctions on him would hurt UK more.

If you want to hurt Putin then UK would need to sanction people who got their wealth after putin became president, with his help, ie everybody invovled in gazprom.

Wont we just help Russia fight corruption? :p Therefore loosing tonnes of money ourselves, since those dirty money end up in UK and USA in their billions.

I think you will find that even Arabs in London are no match for Russkis, calling estate agents and saying they want to buy most expensive property in London without viewing with cash in next hour.
 
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraines-ex-pm-tymoshenko-take-arms-kill-russians-1441651

"Ukraine's Ex-PM Tymoshenko: Take up Arms and Kill the Russians"

Sounds good and European-ish..... Apparently she confirmed it on her official twitter too...

Scorza, what will you say now?? What poo will you come up with this time

Hold on, how many people have died as a direct result of Russia's invasion of the Crimea in order to save Russian citizens from the "ultra-nationalists" in Kiev? I can't help thinking you wouldn't be bothered about that link if it was Russian special forces who had killed him?

Anyway, Barack finally speaks out: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/25/obama-us-nsa-data-collection-trust

He seems to have decided to wind up Putin by dismissing Russia as a "regional power" (from Sun-Tzu's Art of War; once your enemy is out in the open, provoke him).

Scorza, kinda waiting for your response on this one....

Or you using another great strategy?? If the question is too hard, make it seem like it does not exist. :p

He seems to have decided to wind up Putin by dismissing Russia as a "regional power"

Argentina, South America’s second largest country, has agreed to host Russian military bases on the South American continent

http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/argentina-to-host-russian-military-bases-while-america-sleeps/
:rolleyes:
 
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Well I have a simple rule that I try to adhere to, and that's to only bother responding to posts worthy of a response. However since it obviously upsets you and I've already broken that rule many times in this thread, I shall honour your question with a response as follows:

Tymoshenko was expressing her anger in a private conversation which was recorded by persons unknown and possibly edited, I attach even less significance to it than I do to that US diplomats "**** the EU" comment i.e. not much to begin with. I can't help but wonder where all the condemnation is for whoever is taping these private phone calls and leaking them to the likes of Russia Today. The UK media, and UK and US governments were widely criticised around the world for recording people's private conversations and they never actually released the recordings to the general population. Is snooping only a bad thing when we do it?

That is ex prime minister and the new government is openly linked with her... With Yatseniuk the current PM being her supporter.....

Isnt that a bit worrying we have those kind of things said?? Her viewpoint is exactly same of the current regime in Ukraine....

You know this is pretty ****ed up, dont try to compare this to US Diplomats... This Conversation represents current REGIME ATTITUDE towards Russians in Ukraine... She will most likely Run and win the next elections too...

If this is the attitude of current regime to Russian speaking population and vote on banning Russian language in Ukraine being 1st thing they passed once in government, supports this notion... Dont you think its not Russias fault south and east are trying to break away from Ukraine?
 
I see that Iraq got invaded, Libya experienced a popular uprising that displaced the government there, Syria experienced a popular uprising that thus far has not displaced the government there and has turned into a nasty civil war. The only pattern I see here is that eventually brutal dictatorships come to a violent end.

My eyes..... are burning.....
 
I don't understand why there wasn't a presence already given the threat. Or Why don't they ask for UN peacekeepers? That way Russia could be part of the force too.

Why wasnt there a presence in Western Ukraine when they did exactly same thing.....

Double Stan-darts everywhere.

You wanna join EU? You are a Nazi? Yes! You are a freedom fighter!

You wanna join Russia? You try to do things without blood-shed? No. You are a terrorist and should be shot on the spot.


I wouldnt be surprised if by tomorrow tanks from western Ukraine will roll in, shooting everyone against the "new regime" and this will be labelled as glorious removal of terrorists and hailed by world.
 
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It's about as independent as you get for geo-politics (and utterly incapable as a result).

.

Yeah I find that disgusting myself, we cant just go and bomb a random country which seems to annoy us... Un-democractic and greedy Russia/China step in and veto things....

But lets keep quiet that Western nations have vetod around 10x more than China+Russia in recent history, just blame Russia for stopping UN working.

800px-UNSC_veto.svg.png
 
What sort of proof would you like? The Kremlin have deliberately created chaos and confusion in eastern Ukraine - Putin isn't going to stand up and announce "yeah it was us all along". Despite this, you still have a Russian Lt Colonel in Ukraine outside the seized buildings and even taking oaths of allegiance from Ukrainian policemen.

Do you accept that it was Russian troops who took over Crimea? Do you not think it's odd that these protests are so well organised and co-ordinated? Who else has the capability to do that in eastern Ukraine?

Well if you blame Russia for what happens in the East, I am sure you automatically have to accept that the west has fueled the whole ordeal like mentioned in this article.

http://www.hangthebankers.com/us-spent-5-billion-to-destabilize-ukraine/

Since there is about equal amounts of proof that either side were involved.
 
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