• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

The Radeon RX 5700 XT Owners Thread.

Associate
Joined
4 Jul 2008
Posts
1,613
Location
Belfast, N.Ireland
Got my first of 2 5700XT cards today. The first one is the PowerColor Red Devil which is brand new. I have to say I am very impressed so far.

It arrived with just the Amazon address label just slapped on to the box so if anyone knew what it was they could easily steal it. Also I like to keep the box in good nick if I am ever to resell it but it has been a bit battered in transit.

Performance wise I am impressed so far I have only really played an hour of COD MW multiplayer so it is still early days. But in COD I am seeing at least a 30 FPS gain over my RTX 2060.

In terms of temps it seems to stay at 75c when playing games which is slightly lower than my RTX 2060 but this card is in an NCase M1 with one of the side panels off so I am sure it will be tad hotter when it's all closed up. So I will look into under volting the card to drop the temps a bit.

But the card is definitely less noisy even at full load compared to my old card. At idle it’s SILENT. Much better than my old card.

TLDR: Overall I am very happy so far!

ebSmN8K.jpg

The B-grade Nitro+ arrived.

First impressions:

The card came without any packaging, accessories or documentation. Just an OCUK branded anti-static bag. Upon opening, I noticed the PCI bracket was bent out of shape. I grabbed some pliers and tried straightening it, but I'm pretty sure it'll snap if I bend it any more. So only one screw hole will be usable.

The card itself is huge, and absolutely dwarfs the reference card. It looks nice, but build quality isn't up to reference card standards; some bits are plastic, the metal parts flex, etc. But I bought it for the cooler, really.

Installation wasn't too bad, given the size. I had to take my RAM out to angle it in, and there's maybe 2-3mm of clearance between the card and my front fans. I'm lucky, as I didn't bother to check the length before ordering.

The RGB lighting looks great. I haven't had a play with Trixx yet to customise it, so it's just all blue. But a huge improvement on the red Radeon logo on the reference card (I hated that light). I can now get my whole system lit up one colour.

I've had a brief play in Wattman, which has given me my biggest disappointment. My Ref card would run some decent clocks while undervolted. This... won't. The stock clocks are slightly higher at 2095MHz vs 2068MHz, but the Ref card could run that at 1100mV. The Nitro+ just crashes immediately at the same clock speed and voltage. Will need to have a play around and see what I can do with it to improve power efficiency, as stock pulls 230W for only a very minor performance improvement over the Ref card's 180W. In terms of noise, it's much quieter than the Reference card at stock, but louder than the Reference card with my normal undervolt and underclock. So there's some work to be done.

Overall, first impressions are alright. I'm not impressed by how the card arrived. Combined with the discovery (after ordering) that the mobile site hides the 90-day B-grade warranty statement and just advertises the product with the full manufacturers warranty, and I'm considering returning it. £325 seems much less a bargain than it did at the point of ordering.


The 2nd card I have ordered is a AORUS 5700XT from the B Grade Stock on OCUK which I paid £329. So this report does worry me a tad. But if the performance is on par with the Red Devil I would be tempted to return the Red Devil because keeping the AORUS would be £80 cheaper.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
39,323
Location
Ireland
The B-grade Nitro+ arrived.

First impressions:

The card came without any packaging, accessories or documentation. Just an OCUK branded anti-static bag. Upon opening, I noticed the PCI bracket was bent out of shape. I grabbed some pliers and tried straightening it, but I'm pretty sure it'll snap if I bend it any more. So only one screw hole will be usable.

The card itself is huge, and absolutely dwarfs the reference card. It looks nice, but build quality isn't up to reference card standards; some bits are plastic, the metal parts flex, etc. But I bought it for the cooler, really.

Installation wasn't too bad, given the size. I had to take my RAM out to angle it in, and there's maybe 2-3mm of clearance between the card and my front fans. I'm lucky, as I didn't bother to check the length before ordering.

The RGB lighting looks great. I haven't had a play with Trixx yet to customise it, so it's just all blue. But a huge improvement on the red Radeon logo on the reference card (I hated that light). I can now get my whole system lit up one colour.

I've had a brief play in Wattman, which has given me my biggest disappointment. My Ref card would run some decent clocks while undervolted. This... won't. The stock clocks are slightly higher at 2095MHz vs 2068MHz, but the Ref card could run that at 1100mV. The Nitro+ just crashes immediately at the same clock speed and voltage. Will need to have a play around and see what I can do with it to improve power efficiency, as stock pulls 230W for only a very minor performance improvement over the Ref card's 180W. In terms of noise, it's much quieter than the Reference card at stock, but louder than the Reference card with my normal undervolt and underclock. So there's some work to be done.

Overall, first impressions are alright. I'm not impressed by how the card arrived. Combined with the discovery (after ordering) that the mobile site hides the 90-day B-grade warranty statement and just advertises the product with the full manufacturers warranty, and I'm considering returning it. £325 seems much less a bargain than it did at the point of ordering.


Should post some pics of it.
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Apr 2009
Posts
7,591
I will do.

After further testing, this thing is a pile of *insert less polite word* "turd". First, it just doesn't clock as well as the reference card, needing another 50mV or so for the same speeds. Second, it has some bad coil whine. Third, the hot-spot temperatures are terrible; I'm seeing up to 100°C with core temperatures in the 70s. Warranty stickers are still in place, so nobody has been in there and messed anything up.

This thing is a lemon.

Massive shame, as it's a good looking card and all of the other 5700 XT Nitro+ cards in the B-grade section have gone. I got unlucky, I guess. Back to the Reference card; it's less noisy and temps are better :eek:

Photos:

z0oRXQ7.jpg

As said, it looks the part. Just that old Noctua monstrosity uglifying things now (and bad cabling. I didn't do a good job last time I rebuilt).

u8zV2CR_d.webp


PCI bracket. Not really easy to see the angle from the photo, but it's twisted rather than just bent.

And this is how it sounds (not sure how well this will work): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gfAqnTSwNiYMtCeB3tZb9ZnA_BD0MfhU The clicking sounds, for reference, are MX Blue switches on a keyboard, and a G402 mouse.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
39,323
Location
Ireland
Sucky :(. I had a vega 64 nitro for about a day and it also suffered coil whine, that cards obviously been sent back for coil whine and not being a good clocker.
 
Associate
Joined
16 Jan 2012
Posts
43
I will do.

After further testing, this thing is a pile of *insert less polite word* "turd". First, it just doesn't clock as well as the reference card, needing another 50mV or so for the same speeds. Second, it has some bad coil whine. Third, the hot-spot temperatures are terrible; I'm seeing up to 100°C with core temperatures in the 70s. Warranty stickers are still in place, so nobody has been in there and messed anything up.

This thing is a lemon.

Massive shame, as it's a good looking card and all of the other 5700 XT Nitro+ cards in the B-grade section have gone. I got unlucky, I guess. Back to the Reference card; it's less noisy and temps are better :eek:

.

My Nitro is the same fella, temps are usually running at around 75/78 and my junction is usually around 100/105 and every now and then I get the fans ramp up and a noise as if something is stuck in the fan. Have checked them and they are fine but this only started recently.

Mine also wont clock or undervolt as it crashes games as soon as I touch anything and I am also getting frametime spikes which cause stutter (watchdogs 2 the worst and unplayable), put my 1060 back in and the stutter is gone. very dissapointed
 
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2014
Posts
2,955
After further testing, this thing is a pile of *insert less polite word* "turd". First, it just doesn't clock as well as the reference card, needing another 50mV or so for the same speeds. Second, it has some bad coil whine. Third, the hot-spot temperatures are terrible; I'm seeing up to 100°C with core temperatures in the 70s. Warranty stickers are still in place, so nobody has been in there and messed anything up.
I got a 5700 XT yesterday, namely the PowerColor Red Dragon model. I was also alarmed to find that the junction/hot spot was hitting 100 degrees out of the box, despite edge temperature being in the mid-70s. This goes against reviews I'd seen where the junction temperature on this and most models sits somewhere in the mid-80s, but then those are always on an open test bench, rather than inside a closed case. I just assumed a weak(er) cooler combined with a closed case was the cause, but it's interesting to see somebody with a much more expensive model with a much better cooler having the same issues though. Two actually, since Blackheart above reports the same thing. Switching over to the 'Silent' BIOS on my card was like night and day though. Peak voltage dropped from 1.2V to 1.087V, peak fan speed from ~2300RPM to ~1450RPM and my junction temperature now hovers in the high 80s. And despite the fact that it now hits a peak core frequency of only 1980MHz instead of 2093MHz, the actual difference in real world performance is barely measurable. Having benchmarked several games, they score within 1-2fps of each other. Time Spy gets a whopping 3% boost from the 'OC' BIOS. I'm actually very happy with the card now set to the 'Silent' BIOS. Of course, I could have undervolted it myself, but the Radeon Software tuning has an annoying habit of randomly resetting itself. My RX 580 would randomly start sounding like a leafblower again and when I'd look my undervolt would be gone. Having it permanently undervolted at a BIOS level without having to do anything is nice.

It's nuts though really that it even ships with a BIOS cranked up so much for essentially zero performance gain. It seems to be a common theme among AIB models too. I looked at a bunch of reviews of various models on TechPowerUp and they all score within a few percent of the reference card, despite many using huge amounts more power. Even the Nitro+ SE, the highest-clocked model out of the box and with factory overclocked memory, manages just 5% more performance and uses an extra 64W (30%) more power to get there. It seems like AMD actually did a great job with the reference spec as with Ryzen, extracting the vast majority of the available performance without the user needing to do anything. Then you have AIB partners desperately shoving voltage into it to try and eke out another 3% performance and make their card stand out. It's silly.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Sep 2009
Posts
30,112
Location
Dormanstown.
Is it okay to use the gaming profile in AMD software like anti lag, enhanced sync? I use controller while game and don't get any issues like blakcsceeens etc

I don't use any of it.

Using the "gaming pre-set" has given me nothing but issues with a 5700XT, and this was on a friends PC with a different set up with a 5700XT as well, he reported he had issues so I told him to use the standard pre-set and not a problem.
 
Associate
Joined
19 Jan 2019
Posts
511
Location
Co. Down, N.Ireland
I don't use any of it.

Using the "gaming pre-set" has given me nothing but issues with a 5700XT, and this was on a friends PC with a different set up with a 5700XT as well, he reported he had issues so I told him to use the standard pre-set and not a problem.

Also used standard, but with anti lag and enhanced sync enabled gaming feels a lot for fluid and just better while using controller for me personally
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Apr 2009
Posts
7,591
Probably best to return it and get something else.

That's the plan. I'm just waiting on OCUK responding. My thread was moved from Order Queries to Tech Support yesterday. So I suspect someone is going to try and help me solve these problems before I get to return it.

The saving simply isn't worth it though. For around £100 extra, I can have a card that isn't damaged, comes with the full warranty, includes the Raise The Game Codes, and (hopefully) doesn't have bad coil whine. So the only way I'd even consider keeping it now is with a substantial further discount.

I'll probably stick with the Reference card TBH. It isn't anywhere close to as bad as people make out, and it'd cost me around £150 to upgrade that card to a new high-end AIB. Only reason I bought in the first place was because I saw the opportunity to get a card with a fresh warranty and a better cooler for ~£50 outlay.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
22 Dec 2011
Posts
2,056
Location
UK
I got a 5700 XT yesterday, namely the PowerColor Red Dragon model. I was also alarmed to find that the junction/hot spot was hitting 100 degrees out of the box, despite edge temperature being in the mid-70s. This goes against reviews I'd seen where the junction temperature on this and most models sits somewhere in the mid-80s, but then those are always on an open test bench, rather than inside a closed case. I just assumed a weak(er) cooler combined with a closed case was the cause, but it's interesting to see somebody with a much more expensive model with a much better cooler having the same issues though. Two actually, since Blackheart above reports the same thing. Switching over to the 'Silent' BIOS on my card was like night and day though. Peak voltage dropped from 1.2V to 1.087V, peak fan speed from ~2300RPM to ~1450RPM and my junction temperature now hovers in the high 80s. And despite the fact that it now hits a peak core frequency of only 1980MHz instead of 2093MHz, the actual difference in real world performance is barely measurable. Having benchmarked several games, they score within 1-2fps of each other. Time Spy gets a whopping 3% boost from the 'OC' BIOS. I'm actually very happy with the card now set to the 'Silent' BIOS. Of course, I could have undervolted it myself, but the Radeon Software tuning has an annoying habit of randomly resetting itself. My RX 580 would randomly start sounding like a leafblower again and when I'd look my undervolt would be gone. Having it permanently undervolted at a BIOS level without having to do anything is nice.

It's nuts though really that it even ships with a BIOS cranked up so much for essentially zero performance gain. It seems to be a common theme among AIB models too. I looked at a bunch of reviews of various models on TechPowerUp and they all score within a few percent of the reference card, despite many using huge amounts more power. Even the Nitro+ SE, the highest-clocked model out of the box and with factory overclocked memory, manages just 5% more performance and uses an extra 64W (30%) more power to get there. It seems like AMD actually did a great job with the reference spec as with Ryzen, extracting the vast majority of the available performance without the user needing to do anything. Then you have AIB partners desperately shoving voltage into it to try and eke out another 3% performance and make their card stand out. It's silly.

I have the same model as you and I was slightly disappointed to with the junction tempatures being closer to 100c as opposed to the reviews which state 80c.

I haven't given the silent mode a go yet, but will give it ago.

Which driver version are you using?

I am getting some stutter in call of duty warzone and think it may be due to the graphics card.
 
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2014
Posts
2,955
I have the same model as you and I was slightly disappointed to with the junction tempatures being closer to 100c as opposed to the reviews which state 80c.

I haven't given the silent mode a go yet, but will give it ago.

Which driver version are you using?

I am getting some stutter in call of duty warzone and think it may be due to the graphics card.
I'm just using the latest driver. I actually initially just swapped it in for my RX 580 without reinstalling anything and it worked perfectly fine. I was wondering whether the high temperatures and erratic fan speeds might be something to do with that though, so did a DDU/reinstall which made zero difference to anything. It seems they just do hit 100 degrees junction in a closed case when running higher voltages and power limits defined by AIBs. Definetly recommend trying the other BIOS though. Can't say I've had any stuttering either, but I don't play CoD so it could be a specific issue with that.
 
Caporegime
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Posts
47,668
Location
ARC-L1, Stanton System
I got a 5700 XT yesterday, namely the PowerColor Red Dragon model. I was also alarmed to find that the junction/hot spot was hitting 100 degrees out of the box, despite edge temperature being in the mid-70s. This goes against reviews I'd seen where the junction temperature on this and most models sits somewhere in the mid-80s, but then those are always on an open test bench, rather than inside a closed case. I just assumed a weak(er) cooler combined with a closed case was the cause, but it's interesting to see somebody with a much more expensive model with a much better cooler having the same issues though. Two actually, since Blackheart above reports the same thing. Switching over to the 'Silent' BIOS on my card was like night and day though. Peak voltage dropped from 1.2V to 1.087V, peak fan speed from ~2300RPM to ~1450RPM and my junction temperature now hovers in the high 80s. And despite the fact that it now hits a peak core frequency of only 1980MHz instead of 2093MHz, the actual difference in real world performance is barely measurable. Having benchmarked several games, they score within 1-2fps of each other. Time Spy gets a whopping 3% boost from the 'OC' BIOS. I'm actually very happy with the card now set to the 'Silent' BIOS. Of course, I could have undervolted it myself, but the Radeon Software tuning has an annoying habit of randomly resetting itself. My RX 580 would randomly start sounding like a leafblower again and when I'd look my undervolt would be gone. Having it permanently undervolted at a BIOS level without having to do anything is nice.

It's nuts though really that it even ships with a BIOS cranked up so much for essentially zero performance gain. It seems to be a common theme among AIB models too. I looked at a bunch of reviews of various models on TechPowerUp and they all score within a few percent of the reference card, despite many using huge amounts more power. Even the Nitro+ SE, the highest-clocked model out of the box and with factory overclocked memory, manages just 5% more performance and uses an extra 64W (30%) more power to get there. It seems like AMD actually did a great job with the reference spec as with Ryzen, extracting the vast majority of the available performance without the user needing to do anything. Then you have AIB partners desperately shoving voltage into it to try and eke out another 3% performance and make their card stand out. It's silly.

Ramming that many volts into these things is silly, they get higher performance with less volts, as you figured out.

I don't have a silent BIOS on mine but i set it effectively the same thing, power has gone from ~200 to ~160 watt, temps are lower, noise is lower, performance is higher...... the lot.

The performance difference is easy to see why, the clocks instead of Jumping up and down between 1850Mhz and 2050Mhz they only change about 20Mhz at around 1950Mhz.

I have said it before and i'll say it again, why AMD? why 1.2v???????
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Apr 2009
Posts
7,591
@McPhee Not a lot of room left in that chassis. Very tight fit in fact. Could that contribute to the temps?

Temps weren't really an issue. Was just surprised at the difference between the core/memory temps and the hot-spot temp. It's roughly double the difference I was seeing on the Ref card. BU if it's typical, fair enough.

The fan noise, as it turns out, wasn't the GPU. It was the case fans, which were ramping up more than before because of the change from a blower cooler to an axial fan cooler on the GPU; CPU temps had risen by about 5-8°C at load. Unfortunately, the RAM is too tall to put a standard 25mm fan on that CPU cooler, so if I were keeping the Nitro+, I'd either need a slimmer cooler, a slim fan, or shorter RAM. But adjusting the fan curve sorted the noise at the cost of another few degrees on CPU temp (still <70°C, so not a problem).
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
OP
Joined
21 May 2012
Posts
31,940
Location
Dalek flagship
Got my first of 2 5700XT cards today. The first one is the PowerColor Red Devil which is brand new. I have to say I am very impressed so far.

It arrived with just the Amazon address label just slapped on to the box so if anyone knew what it was they could easily steal it. Also I like to keep the box in good nick if I am ever to resell it but it has been a bit battered in transit.

Performance wise I am impressed so far I have only really played an hour of COD MW multiplayer so it is still early days. But in COD I am seeing at least a 30 FPS gain over my RTX 2060.

In terms of temps it seems to stay at 75c when playing games which is slightly lower than my RTX 2060 but this card is in an NCase M1 with one of the side panels off so I am sure it will be tad hotter when it's all closed up. So I will look into under volting the card to drop the temps a bit.

But the card is definitely less noisy even at full load compared to my old card. At idle it’s SILENT. Much better than my old card.

TLDR: Overall I am very happy so far!

ebSmN8K.jpg




The 2nd card I have ordered is a AORUS 5700XT from the B Grade Stock on OCUK which I paid £329. So this report does worry me a tad. But if the performance is on par with the Red Devil I would be tempted to return the Red Devil because keeping the AORUS would be £80 cheaper.


Welcome and on TROH.:)



The Roll of Honour.


Hk6Mrap.jpg


Date 01/05/2020, Make PowerColor Red Devil, Eatchipz, Link
Date 14/04/2020, Make PowerColor Red Devil, Andygully, Link
Date 14/04/2020, Make AMD Reference, Phate, Link
Date 07/04/2020, Make Sapphire Nitro+, Figo, Link
Date 16/03/2020, Make Sapphire Nitro+ SE, InVitriol, Link
Date 01/03/2020, Make Sapphire Nitro+ SE, Brizzles, Link
Date 27/02/2020, Make PowerColor Red Devil, ShiWarrior, Link
Date 25/02/2020, Make AMD 50th AE, djay, Link
Date 11/02/2020, Make MSI MECH OC, Phil2008, Link
Date 18/12/2019, Make AMD Reference, Shilz, Link
Date 30/11/2019, Make MSI Gaming X, Toxile, Link
Date 25/11/2019, Make Sapphire Nitro+ SE, Kevin Matthews, Link
Date 02/10/2019, Make Sapphire Nitro+, EastCoastHandle, Link
Date 02/10/2019, Make PowerColor Red Dragon, Darren_uk, Link
Date 18/09/2019, Make Sapphire Nitro+, VaderDSL, Link
Date 17/09/2019, Make Sapphire Nitro+, TimAhKin, Link
Date 14/09/2019, Make AMD Reference, satchef1, Link
Date 09/09/2019, Make AMD Reference, Orange Nexus, Link
Date 07/09/2019, Make PowerColor Red Dragon, Aod, Link
Date 06/09/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, Ross Thomson, Link
Date 31/08/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, RedDeangelo, Link
Date 31/08/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, KentMan, Link
Date 31/08/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, Jimbo, Link
Date 30/08/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, iamcll, Link
Date 30/08/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, Satchfanuk, Link
Date 24/08/2019, Make Sapphire Pulse, lordhawkwind, Link
Date 19/08/2019, Make PowerColor Red Devil, Troezar, Link
Date 18/08/2019, Make Sapphire Pulse, howkey, Link
Date 17/08/2019, Make AMD Reference, Raelgun, Link
Date 17/08/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, Voodoo_what, Link
Date 14/08/2019, Make AMD Reference, DrSteve, Link
Date 10/08/2019, Make AMD Reference, Potatowithearsontheside, Link
Date 08/08/2019, Make AMD Reference, R3v4n, Link
Date 08/08/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, Besty, Link
Date 07/08/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, willb1967, Link
Date 31/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, ernorator, Link
Date 31/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, Kevin Matthews, Link
Date 30/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, FiremanSam, Link
Date 25/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, xxalxx, Link
Date 25/07/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, brightside229, Link
Date 25/07/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, Panos, Link
Date 20/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, InvaderGIR, Link
Date 20/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, Aod, Link
Date 19/07/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, BOFH, Link
Date 18/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, gavinh87, Link
Date 17/07/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, LtMatt, Link
Date 14/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, bake73, Link
Date 12/07/2019, Make AMD 50th AE, jrodga2k5, Link
Date 11/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, LtMatt, Link
Date 11/07/2019, Make AMD Reference, docsonic, Link



To get on the Roll of Honour all you have to do is post a pic with your user name on it of your Radeon RX 5700 XT.
 
Associate
Joined
15 Jul 2010
Posts
17
Incidentally, for other Red devil owners, can you get away with sustained zero fan action if you're just idling/web browsing in Quiet Bios mode (without having to alter the fan curve to accept higher idle temp than 60 degrees)?

As per the image below I get periodic bursts of fans running at 30%. It's about 4 minutes of still time during which the temps nudge up to 58 degrees, fans kick in for a minute or two bringing temps down to 49 then another 4 mins quiet. It's like clockwork.

Running in a meshify C case. Admittedly I have case fans (2x LS140 in front, 1x LS120 in back) and radiator fans running on minimum RPMs (800 or so) as I like as quiet a system as possible. So it might be a bit warmer in the case than it could otherwise be. The red devil is still super quiet when the fans kick in, just wondering if others can perform light workloads and keep those temps under the 60 degree mark.

H4Dph37.jpg
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2014
Posts
2,955
Incidentally, for other Red devil owners, can you get away with sustained zero fan action if you're just idling/web browsing in Quiet Bios mode (without having to alter the fan curve to accept higher idle temp than 60 degrees)?
I have the cheaper Red Dragon and I can. Once it's warmed up it never goes above the mid-40s during desktop usage. Watching a 4K Youtube video gets it up to 51, but I haven't seen it go higher or switch the fans on. That's in a Phanteks Evolv X with three intakes and one exhaust (all Noctua NF-A14s) running at ~520RPM, so not high airflow by any means. I'd have thought the Red Devil should perform better than the Red Dragon in that respect, since it has a much larger cooler to soak up that sort of constant low heat output.
 
Back
Top Bottom